Group Size Limits

“1. Do you feel big groups are OK?

2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?

3. When does a group of hikers go from being a responsible number to becoming irresponsible in it's size?

4. Do you feel big groups make too big of a footprint on an area?

5. What are some ways you feel hikers can minimize their effects on an area when you find yourself suddenly part of a large group?

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As for me...

1. no, except if said group is staying in a group campground.site.

2. 10 people

3. At 11

4. Yes.

5. The biggest thing for me is being quiet. The bigger the group the louder the group. I have been stuck in the same area as some big groups and and many were gawd awful loud. I have even been with groups that were baying and howling at the moon in the middle of the night. I was extremely embarrassed.”

“Cheeze us.

You never were really keen on anything bigger than a five center at best back in the day.

Never took you for an "affirmation with a list" type of guy, either.”

“Nigal - Perhaps you should have put some clothes on prior to joining the group.

LOL.

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Group Size Limit: 1,200 pounds.
last edited: 2/24/08 6:38:41 PM”

“I've never been really needed the validation of others for my opinions. Weather this is from delusion or self confidence I'm not sure. That's your call. LOL!

I've been on quite a few big group hikes but I think I am regressing back into my old ways and preferences.”

“I only go by myself, or maybe with one other person if I am close to that person.

The reason is simple: I go backpacking to get away from humans and human society, and to find solace in nature; if you want a sport with human interaction play softball or join a bowling league.”

“"I've never been really needed the validation of others for my opinions."

Please give the keyboard back to Mr. Poopypants.”

“Dunno Nigal. Depends on the group and the area. I've been in small groups that were a little too much and big groups that were just fine. Solo is just too damn quiet.

The biggest impacts seem to me to be noise and trampling vegetation and/or stripping an are of deadfall looking for firewood.

Noise is easy, don't yell.

As for campfires I always walk back up the trail and after a couple of minutes of walking (well past the area where most folks stop looking for wood. It's pretty obvious to see) I start looking in the woods for deadfall I can reach easy from the trail and toss it next to the trail. Usually after a few minutes of walking I figure I have what I need so I turn around and walk back down the trail and collect what I found. Works pretty well in the that you aren't stripping the campsites and you don't really have to leave the trail.”

“1. Yes, in campgrounds.

2. I think 6 is golden for peace and quiet and little imprint.

3.from 12 to 13. But truthfully, it depends upon the individuals.

4.Yes, but really, most areas I've hiked w/ large groups are already thoroughly "foot-printed".

5. Quiet and small bonfire.”

“I like it both ways.”

“Couldn't this be done more in the proper "FW:FW:FW:" email style?

Take it to email, or on to your "buddy list".”

“1. Do you feel big groups are OK?

~ Yes and no... depends on the situation. In actual car-camping trips, sure.... it's a blast. But on a backpacking trip in the "wilderness," it can get out of hand, especially if there is drinking involved, which on TT trips, let's face it, there normally is! Plus I like to get to know people on a personal basis on trips and it's hard to do when there are so many people. It's not personal enough.

2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?

~ Hard to say because I've been on trips where there have been 10 of us and been on trips where there was just 3 of us and we've had a blast both ways... it just depends on the type of group I'm going with. I have mellow groups of friends and rowdy groups of friends. It'd be different numbers for each type of group I'm going with!

3. When does a group of hikers go from being a responsible number to becoming irresponsible in it's size?

~ See above answer.

4. Do you feel big groups make too big of a footprint on an area?

~Not if they're responsible, mature, and respectful enough, no. Pick up after yourself and LNT, isn't that the rule?

5. What are some ways you feel hikers can minimize their effects on an area when you find yourself suddenly part of a large group?

~ Basically, just be respectful of each other and the land. And keep the noise to a minimum. Most of us come out to get away from the usual hustle and bustle of life and to relax.
last edited: 2/24/08 7:48:46 PM”

“I was part of a large group that could have been ten or more on Roaring Plains, WVa in October '02.

Every one in the party was "self-contained" and experienced and respectful of the environment.

I don't remember things getting very loud even though there was some hooch going around.

The breakfast in Davis, WVa was very nice.”

“more than about 4 is no longer backpacking, that's a party

If a big group is loud at the end of the day, you didn't push hard enough. If they're loud while hiking, they're a bunch of d*cks.

What? I said ducks.”

“Break out a plastic sheet and a can of crisco and it really doesn't matter how big the crowd is...things are going to get out of control anyway.”

“1. Do you feel big groups are OK?

Yes

2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?

At the limits imposed by the park service.

3. When does a group of hikers go from being a responsible number to becoming irresponsible in it's size?

When it goes over the protective limits imposed by the park service.

4. Do you feel big groups make too big of a footprint on an area?

Possible. It would depend on the group. I trust that the park service has put the proper limits in place that this footprint can be managed.

5. What are some ways you feel hikers can minimize their effects on an area when you find yourself suddenly part of a large group?

Follow the rules regarding limits and permits. Don't cheat or make yourself a special case. If you are in a large group disperse when you camp and camp only in permitted ares. Walk single-file and stick to established trails. Disperse (don't walk single file) when walking off trail.”

“Was that the trip I was on MarkO? The Roaring Plains trip was the biggest/quietest group I've ever been in. It was exceptional for sure. I think it had something to do with the fact that we'd hiked our arses off that day. =)
Good trip.”

“2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?

At the limits imposed by the park service.

This is the one that is somewhat irksome to me. The limit here in Ohio is 10 but I was out hiking once and I kept coming across these groups of 10 scouts. So they are in groups of 10, fine. But every one of them is going to stay at the same camp. There were like 60 of them.”

““Couldn't this be done more in the proper "FW:FW:FW:" email style?

Take it to email, or on to your "buddy list".”

Damn Q don't do that...I thought you were channeling Stovestomper there. LOL!

Seriously though man just chill out. I made it a short list because I know how scattered and unfocused threads can get and I really am interested to know how people feel about the subject. In the same amount of time you spent trying to rip on me here you could have answered and actually contributed.”

“MarkO / what is HOOCH ? Is it like Hoochy koochy?”

“I've never been with a group that was too big. Usually I wish there was more participation on group trips. Once there were 14 of us, but we hiked in separtately and no one was out of control.

My goals and mental state are very different on a social trip than if I'm solo or with one other person.”

“�1. Do you feel big groups are OK?

yep, just depends on the area.

2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?

Thats a tough call. For a kids trip, no limit. The more the merrier. Regular trips its depends on the place. At Red River Gorge for example above 10 or so and its nearly impossible to find a good camp(unless you spread out pretty far) or for privy privacy.

3. When does a group of hikers go from being a responsible number to becoming irresponsible in it's size?

You know it when you see it, no real fixed number. If you are bushwhacking and guerrila camping it simply becomes an issue of logistics.


4. Do you feel big groups make too big of a footprint on an area?

Depending on the group for sure. I have seen scout groups change an area bigtime (think of that huge cleared site the last night or our MRT trip last fall). If folks are sloppy and leave trash and white flowers all over sure. The bonfire ring can be a problem.

5. What are some ways you feel hikers can minimize their effects on an area when you find yourself suddenly part of a large group?

Moveout



I love group trips lately. I dont get out as often as I like so its great to be able to meet up with a bunch of friends and maximize the trip. I am thinking about the mammoth cave trip two years ago. I am geussing maybe 12-15 of us. The hiking was never congested (we did three seperate routes to camp) or like a line of cattle. At times 3-4 of us hiked fairly close other times not. We all crashed at one campsite, we had a fire but I dont recall things ever getting loud, other than the storm that night.

Other places like Isle Royale are much better suited to small groups (hence the 6 pax limit). Unless you do a group site. Even there though I have been with groups of 10-12 on 2 different times (8-9 teens 2-3 adults) and it wasnt out of hand.

I think a great way to judge it is to follow the planning, it becomes fairly obvious when a trip will be a party and when it wont. I like em both.”

“hehe some of the larger trips I've been on were like herding cats anyway, folks didn;t end up hiking or camping together except maybe on the last night lol
I do most of my hiking solo, I don't mind a larger trip sometimes. Its fun to see how others do their thing. I figure if everyone in the group picks up after themselves, and leaves the camp site better then what it was (which has always been the case in my experience) then the foot print is not so bad. If it were a trip truly in the wilderness (yeah, try to find real wilderness in IN...) I would want a small group or solo if campsites are not established.
last edited: 2/25/08 5:27:11 AM”

“i hear you nigal. if the park service in the grand canyon thinks people are doing this they cancel the permits and break the groups up, as well they should. that's what i meant when i said don't make yourself a special case or bend/ignore the rules.”

“As you know Nigal I never was a Big GROUP type. Even the one hike I went on I tried to stay a bit away from the group.

10 is getting a bit steep in size. But I could put up with it....”

“I like both also. A bad day on the trail is better than a good day in town.”

“1. Do you feel big groups are OK?Yes, but...When the Sierrapaloozas got to 20 people it was too much. We're now down to about 10 and it's working pretty good.
It's been very nice meeting people from around the country and getting to know them, but above 10 people you can't have a good conversation.

2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?
For a week long trip, 10 max.
For a weekend 5 max.

3. When does a group of hikers go from being a responsible number to becoming irresponsible in it's size?
Depends on the area. The Sierrapaloozas have been on popular trails with campsites large enough that we didn't degrade the area any further.
When we go off trail again 5 would be the max. and no campfire.

4. Do you feel big groups make too big of a footprint on an area?
Not if you're responsible.

5. What are some ways you feel hikers can minimize their effects on an area when you find yourself suddenly part of a large group?
Respect your neighbors. I've been in campsites where there were so many tents they were sharing tent pegs. We had to whisper when we talked. Other times we had the whole valley to ourselves and we could howl at the moon.”

“1. Do you feel big groups are OK?
Like others have said, in designated car camping grounds, sure thing. In the backcountry, not really. that said, I just went with eight guys snowcamping the other weekend. For me, that's a big group. Usually it's just me and the mrs.

*Add: I think Wilderness areas are limited to groups no larger than 10.
2. So where is the line drawn for you personally?

Depends on who the people are going hiking. A bunch of newbs, not interested. Experienced hikers that I know, I am willing to consider more folks because I know they'll be mostly low-impact and LNT. Car camping doesn't really matter since those are established campsites meant to be high-impact.

3. When does a group of hikers go from being a responsible number to becoming irresponsible in it's size?
Responsible = 6 or less.

4. Do you feel big groups make too big of a footprint on an area?

Again, depends where. Backcountry=yes.

5. What are some ways you feel hikers can minimize their effects on an area when you find yourself suddenly part of a large group?

Spread out. Dig a latrine. Use established trails.
last edited: 2/25/08 10:02:06 AM”

“Big groups are fine (8 to 10) as long as they obey the rules of the trail and practice good habits (packing it out, etc). What I laugh at is how many hikers (esp thru hikers) feel that the trails are for THEM only. There is a feeling of superiority you get from them (some of them).

What's the difference between 20 thru hikers starting on the trail in GA and a group of 10 scouts practicing good trail conduct? The thru hikers noses are scraping the sky.”

“i think it depends on the group...if you have a group that all practice LNT then that's no different, and maybe even better, than a small group...i agree with you on the noise though...i cringe every time i'm on a large trip that get rowdy...it's disrespectful of others in the area plus on of the things i like about being out there is seeing wildlife and if some nutjob is running at the mouth it scares everything away”

“damn, I think I touched a nerve with my private trip crap, eh?”