1 In Every 99 Americans Now Behind Bars

“That's probably true XL, but beside the point. I am curious to know if legalizing alcohol has made it any cheaper than moonshine - even when you take out the taxes. My guess is no.

Memo to self: Don't drink any moonshine if offered by squirrelbait!
last edited: 3/03/08 1:22:03 PM”

“Using personal experience in order to support an argument is a fallacy and makes the support invalid.

Experience does not equate fact.”
laqtis
4:05:53 PM
3/02/08


Interesting. So what advice should we consider here? Advice from someone who prosecutes criminals or advice from someone who smokes pot? I wonder if the same argument holds true in regards to backpacking advice?

Should I only accept advice or opinions when the experts and the experienced and academia support my beliefs? Talk about burying your head in the sand.”

“You mean a man who would have to admit he may have been locking people up pointlessly for 20+ years?
It's also easy to find people within the legal system with a different opinion.

The experience is important but can't be taken as gospel.

There's also a point where it's difficult to gain a balanced view when you constantly witness the negative side of things.


He's likely to have had little experience beyond enforcement in that time as he strikes me as someone who would be on the phone as soon as he heard the match being lit ;o)
last edited: 3/03/08 1:54:48 PM”

“I trust the people I depise
I love to hear their random lies
did he look right at that russian and stare down deeply in his eyes?
or just cross the street and order freedom fries?
last edited: 3/03/08 2:05:11 PM”

“I've never been on this side of the fence before, but the thought of my nieces/nephews, or maybe one day my kids, being able to go down to the corner store and pick up some meth scares the #&%!$ out of me.

Granted, they might have to pay the neighborhood drunk to go in and buy it for them if they're not old enough. But, if it's in the store, and they want it, they're gonna get it.

On the other hand, I would not have a problem if the store was carrying dimebags and quarters. I guess that makes me a hypocrite, I don't know. I think I'm with Hyway, in that I would be all for legalized marijuana, but how do you draw the line?”

“There's also a point where it's difficult to gain a balanced view when you constantly witness the negative side of things.
last edited: 3/03/08 2:54:48 PM”
Y2
2:54:04 PM
3/03/08


Locking up a drug user/pusher who brings criminals into a neighborhood or abuses his kids is a negative thing?”

“Noncon - please understand, y2 is coming at this from a "how can we best destroy America" point of view.”

“Oh come on Creek Dancer, we used quality materials. A stainless steel still with rubber connectors lifted from the chemistry department, copper tubing and all kinds of collection jugs. No soldered joints in our process so you don't have to worry about going blind.”

“And one other thing. Tonight is Intervention night, about 2 hours of it on TV. Watch that show and then see if you think drugs are ok. Most of the addicts are either alcohol or meth and seeing them on a daily basis is sad. And when you get to see the ones who have cleaned up their lives it gives you a warm fuzzy.”

“Yes NonC - that's exactly what I'm saying (you can see my eyes rolling right?).”

“What I'm actually saying is that when you get that close to the cliff face you can only see part of the mountain.

Most people's experiences with drugs are overwhelmingly positve on a personal level (or they wouldn't keep taking it). I know possibly hundreds of people who have taken drugs of all kinds, of which maybe a handful have any had significant issues either with crime or serious addiction - and these people woul have slipped up in life regardless of drug use.

I've also spent a couple of years of my career covering court cases - if I'd done this for 20 years, given the horror stories you come across, and the way it's often used as an excuse, I'd have a different opinion on the matter I'm sure.

The biggest falacy in all this is that dealers are somehow creating a market and leading kids astray - sure that can happen, but in most cases it's a seller's market, with people looking for drugs and them generally selling like hot cakes.”

“Either it's up to the individual or the result isn't freedom at all.   It's closer to being a big fat lie some people advertise as "freedom".   That's all there is to it.  

People who want to bend others to their versions of morality are on some power trip that has nothing to do with the founding principles of this country.   It's quite the opposite, in fact.

Have you pissed in a jar for your corporate owners today?”

“We educate our kids about the dangers of drinking and all that goes along with it. Alcohol is sold in nearly every store on ever street in every town in America. Yet we don't have an epidemic of alcoholic kids.

But, if it's in the store, and they want it, they're gonna get it.

Ductape, they can get it now on the street corner and it's dirty, dangerous stuff. The simple fact is you will never get rid of drugs. The war on drugs is futile. So why not make the drugs safe, save all the money we throw down the rat hole to fight the war? Why not remove the criminal effects that spin off of the war?”

“Cool watch if ya get the time.

Penn & Teller - Bullshlt - War on Drugs
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3”

“Tilt says, "People who want to bend others to their versions of morality are on some power trip that has nothing to do with the founding principles of this country."

Actually the founding fathers set up a constitution that provides Congress can pass laws making heroin, cocaine, meth, and cannabis illegal. And they passed a Bill of Rights, leaving out any right to use drugs and cannabis.

I'll go with what our founding fathers set up. A constitutional representative democracy that can and does criminalize drugs and marijuana.

But Tilt, if you truly believe what you posted, you can move to another country that allows you to buy the drugs of your choice. But wait, all countries make drugs illegal.”

“You can take the Pros out of the court, but you can't take the court out of the Pros.

You're retired already. Enjoy it for crying out loud!”

“Laqtis, I am enjoying my retirement.”

“I know you're just yanking chains, Ed.

If this is what keeps the chops up, than have at it. I only caution you on the fact that the courtroom context where your forte` might have served you well, can not be fully equivocated into the context of formal debate.

Ah, hell, who the hell am I kidding? Formal debate? at this place?


lol! carry on!”

“Ah, hell, who the hell am I kidding? Formal debate? at this place?

That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "We use words like poopy and phuck around here! That ain't formal.". LOL!”

“"The sentencing guidelines went into effect Monday — the result of a December decision by the U.S. Sentencing Commission to ease the way the system came down far harder on crack-related crimes than on those involving powdered cocaine.

Previously, a person with one gram of crack would receive the same sentence as someone with 100 grams of the powdered form of cocaine. The disparity has been decried as racially discriminatory, since four of every five crack defendants in the U.S. are black, while most powdered-cocaine convictions involve whites."”

““You can take the Pros out of the court, but you can't take the court out of the Pros.

You're retired already. Enjoy it for crying out loud!”
Lactose the Intolerant
8:53:44 PM

So when are you going to retire there lactose?Oh wait...permenant student...you are kinda RETIRED too, but without the requisite "contributions to society"...

SO now I dub thee....LEECHTOSE the Intolerant....”

“Oh brother the blind leading ......”

“This was actually an interesting discussion before all the chit throwing. Such is "life" on TT...”

“Must squelch the truth of how dumb this civilization really is about freedoms that don't go along with the desires of the church.”

“Interesting article about Marijuana use in adolescents....

"A study published in the Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine was completed on 5,263 teenage students in Switzerland and is producing some hair raising results. In line with a lot of studies that have been released in 2007 and 2008, this study boldly claims that it has found that marijuana use does not produce the fearful symptoms spread by anti-drug groups. The study seems to make a case that teenagers who use only marijuana, opposed to students who use marijuana and cigarettes are more active in sports, have better grades, are more socially adept and have used less illegal drugs.

As this might seem completely crazy to some as they nod their head in doubt, we’ll cover the actual study statistics so you can define your own truth. Before we jump into the specific study data, it is important to note that this study was completed in Switzerland where laws around marijuana are more lax and it is more socially acceptable to use the drug. America definitely has much tougher laws on marijuana use and possession. Now that we have established the liberal differences, let’s jump into the data of the actual study."

Rest of story

Actual study”

“Marc Galanter, M.D., Director, Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, New York University Medical Center says that the regular use of marijuana may also lead to mental health problems, that youths who use marijuana weekly have double the risk of depression later in life and are three times more likely than non-users to have suicidal thoughts.

Cyril D'Souza, M.D., associate professor of psychiatry at Yale School of Medicine says marijuana causes schizophrenia like symptom and has long been known to be associated with psychosis.”

“Isn't that usually the final gasp of a bankrupt policy? "America: Love it or Leave it"?   Is that like "Git outta town afore sundown"   ?

Sorry, Ed.   I think I'll stick around.   If you're lucky you may live long enough to see enough people come to their senses, and citizens will regain control of what they can put into their own bodies.   Perhaps they'll even have the right to know when they're consuming genetically modified foodstuffs.

Your pet policies will eventually be tossed into the dustbin of history.....   but thems is the breaks.”

“That explains tilt, Ed.”

“Minimal Long-term Effects Of Marijuana Use Found In Central Nervous System By UCSD Researchers

Complete story

Study: Marijuana doesn't raise cancer risk

SAN DIEGO, May 24 (UPI) -- People who smoke marijuana -- even heavy, long-term marijuana users -- appear not to be at increased risk of developing lung cancer, says a U.S. study

Complete story

Marijuana Has Less Adverse Effect on Driving Than Alcohol, Tiredness, U.K. Study Says

Complete story”

“Pros...
You neglected to mention that Cyril D'Souza, M.D. study was about alcohol, cannabis and nicotine.

Link

I'm sure that was just an oversite on your part.

Seems that Marc Galanter, M.D also speaks of the mental health dangers of alcohol use.
last edited: 3/04/08 9:51:15 PM”

“Here is another a study by Cyril D’Souza, MD

"In this issue of Primary Psychiatry, the possible contributions of glutamatergic dysfunction to the pathophysiology of some major psychiatric disorders, including schizophrenia, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), dementia, and alcoholism are examined, and the physiology of the glutamate system is reviewed"

Would seem he feels that alcohol use has its issues too.....

Link

I may be reading it wrong. It's late and I having a hard time with my reading comprehension right now. The pain killers I have in me aren't helping either, LOL.
last edited: 3/04/08 10:09:28 PM”

“I don't even think the issue of weather it's good or bad is debatable. The real issue is who's right is it to choose for us weather we want to use it? Hell nearly everything in moderation can be healthy and of course excess of nearly anything is bad for us. It just boggles my mind that alcohol is OK but the sticky icky is evil.”

“I agree with Nigal that it is not right for anyone to choose the weather for us.


As to marijuana, the risk is not from lung cancer. The risk of repeated exposure to marijuana is that it causes abnormalities in the brain. Recent studies showed that heavy marijuana smoking can restructure the adolescent brain disturbingly similar to the neural pathways found in schizophrenics. "The same pattern of abnormalities that you could see in schizophrenia you could also see in adolescents who don't have schizophrenia but who just smoke marijuana," said one researcher. Earlier studies of adolescent marijuana smokers suggest that they are two to four times more likely to develop schizophrenia than non-smokers.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news....rld-hed


I am glad that MntSteve posted information that agrees that marijuana impares driving though.


As for Tilt, I really don't care if people exercise their right to vote to legalize marijuana for everyday use. Everywhere it has been on the ballot it has failed miserably. But if Tilt ignores the law, he is the one who will have to spend a night or more in jail, he is the one who would be a defendant in court, he is the one who might have his car and property forfeited, he is the one who will have to post bonds and hire lawyers, not I. Knock yourself out Tilt.”

“Okay let's close all the Mcdonalds and stop driving cars. The excessive use of the fats and the fumes are far worse than Moderate use, MODERATE USE of marijuana.

Because of alcohols twisted and bumpy history in this counrty it should be the template. We did make many drugs illegal at the same time we again made alcohol legal.

All that the public knows about the drug war has many of the same sources as what we hear about Global Warming and Cooling and the prez candidates and Iraq for that matter.
last edited: 3/05/08 6:39:37 AM”

“Well guys I am doing my dead level best to raise that percentage....(LOL)

I think my official opinion on this subject is WGASA”

“Seems to me that the side-effects and risks of Marijuana are far lower than most of the other things we consume out there.

If it is bad for people lets concentrate on that message rather than locking people up for it.

As the war on drugs is not working it just seems like we lock people up so we feel like we're doing something, rather than actually trying to reduce the use and abuse of drugs.”

“As the war on drugs is not working it just seems like we lock people up so we feel like we're doing something, rather than actually trying to reduce the use and abuse of drugs.

We? You got a mouse in your pocket? You're not an American. Try to remember.”

“Locking people up for drugs reduces the number of addicts in society through deterrence.”

““Remember FREEDOM only pisses off those who want control”

XL400236
8:20:49 AM
3/05/08

”

“hmmm, you'd think prison numbers would be going down if 'deterrence' was working. Strangely they seem to be going up - how puzzling.”

“Locking people up for drugs reduces the number of addicts in society through deterrence. - prosecutor

Cite.”

“punt
last edited: 3/05/08 9:27:36 AM”

“Barry R. McCaffrey, director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, says, “Studies show that the more a product is available and legalized, the greater will be its use.”

Robert E. Peterson, Former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania says, "70% of high school students in New Jersey and about 60% of the students in California said that fear of getting in trouble with the law constituted a major reason not to use drugs."

As our prisons filled up with drug violators, drug use dropped in the population from previous record highs.”

“hmmm, you'd think prison numbers would be going down if 'deterrence' was working. Strangely they seem to be going up - how puzzling

puzzling? What's puzzling is why you'd think that's puzzling. There could be several reasons.

1. Increased population
2. More laws to cover more people
3. Better enforcement techniques

Why is it so puzzling?

Plus, of course the prison numbers are going up. We've always put them in faster than letting them out - so over time, the numbers build up. Duh. If you add one person, that doesn't mean you automatically subtract one. LOL. y2, are you serious? What a clown.”

“I was wondering where you were getting your information, prosecutor, because you seem very sure of your position that the war on drugs has been a success.

I've done some literature reviews in the past for a couple clients regarding drug policy, and the one thing that stood out the most to me was that the available data on the effectiveness of the WOD is poor with little money being spent to get good data.

Start here to read about that:

Manski, C. F., Pepper, J. V.,&Petrie, C. V. (Eds.). (2001). Informing America’s policy on illegal drugs: What we don’t know keeps hurting us. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.

Reuter, P. (2001). Why does research have so little impact on American drug policy? Addiction, 96, 373-376.

So when people claim to be very certain about its effectiveness or ineffectiveness, I have to raise an eyebrow because they are most likely full of sh*t or getting their data from biased sources. *ahem*

Personally for myself, the most compelling evidence that the WOD is failing comes from cost-benefit analyses. Being generous and acknowledging that there is some evidence showing the WOD is marginally effective at reducing drug use, the costs involved are simply not worth sub-mediocre efficacy. Being no fan of big government programs and senseless government spending, I don't consider it worthwhile at all.

Start with these to see what I'm talking about:

Kuziemko, I., & Levitt, S. D. (2001). An empirical analysis of imprisoning drug offenders. (NBER Working Paper No. 8489). Cambridge, MA: National Bureau of Economic Research.

Caulkins, J. P., Rydell, C. P., Schwabe, W. L., & Chiesa, J. (1997). Mandatory minimum drug sentences: Throwing away the key or the taxpayers’money? Santa Monica, CA: RAND.”

“Did you figure in the costs of ridding ourselves of the WODs?”

“My inlaw that's an expert on this had the SS Censorship steam over his book a few years back. Collusion seems to be the stuff that floats this Armanda.”

“
        1.01% of Americans are bartenders.

”

“How much do we taxpayers give Mexico and Columbia to import drugs? Oh, they call it foreign aid like that we give Pakistan for guarding Ben Laden from being captured.”