Dems urge bailout of auto industry

“�she must be cutting and pasting, because i dont think ive ever seen her put together that many complete sentences with grammar and spelling that good�
crash bang


Of course: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?p=3426994”

“The US government made $350 million off the Chrysler loan guarantee. It was risky but turned out to be a pretty good deal for the taxpayer.

If the Big Three or a more consolidated industry could retool and start making the high quality, fuel efficient vehicles they should have been producing a few years back, we'll make money and enjoy a stronger position in the world economy.

Incidentally - who makes our tanks and other military vehicles? Do you really think it makes sense to import them from a potential rival?”

“Build a better car and people will buy it. Problem solved guys. When Chevy, Ford and Chrysler can build a car as good as Toyota then they will prosper. How do you do it? Expelling the AWU is a good start.”

“Why is it we assume that another American company wouldn't start making cars if the big 3 collapsed? Without that institutionalized boneheadedness and its antiquated plants and mindsets, and unions, a new company would be much better set to provide the cars teh American consumer wants.

BTW, we just pumped another $40 billion into AIG. I wonder how much we will have to keep pumping into it before it either fails outright or starts to turn the corner.”

“I say GM sells out to Saleen for pennies on the dollars and Saleen starts mass producing the S7.

”

“Until someone actually addresses the insanity of the credit default-swap market there will be no end to the money the government will have to throw at aig. I mention this because this is the same problem that has put the straw on the auto industries camel-back. No access to capitol markets and high cost of credit default swaps has eaten them alive. It is not the root of their problems but its what knocked over the house of cards for a lot of poorly run businesses.”

“The markets must be allowed to hit bottom before they can recover and rebuild.”

“It will be a much shorter event than the long drawn out process before us now”

“LOL..the American Autoworkers Unions have made sure that Incompetence is protected for years. LOL as the fuel debate rages (JUST LIKE THE 70s) they refuse to address it.”

“i think part of the challenge is that things like "credit default-swaps" don't make sense to the voting populace and so the term "bailout" is offered as a way to dummy-down what's going on. this all basically adds up to cleaning up after a bunch of people that went nuts in an unregulated market racking up the profits with hands over their eyes ignoring the obvious insanity until the bottom fell out. in a way i understand that there may be a need to fix something, but i sure would like to see the government get some accountability for our money. this "we all profited from this" is a line of BS designed to prevent the public from crying out for deeper understanding of the mismanagement. i am betting if we dug into this even a little bit we would find a lot of fairly prominent people that would have to go to jail.”

“hi Dan.”

““Build a better car and people will buy it. Problem solved guys. When Chevy, Ford and Chrysler can build a car as good as Toyota then they will prosper. How do you do it? Expelling the AWU is a good start.”
Nigal
4:27:48 AM
11/10/08

This is kinda the point Nigel - it's looking likely that without the bailout they won't get the chance to build these cars. Wasn't the volt looking pretty interesting?

“Why is it we assume that another American company wouldn't start making cars if the big 3 collapsed? Without that institutionalized boneheadedness and its antiquated plants and mindsets, and unions, a new company would be much better set to provide the cars teh American consumer wants.

BTW, we just pumped another $40 billion into AIG. I wonder how much we will have to keep pumping into it before it either fails outright or starts to turn the corner.”
hyway
4:34:08 AM
11/10/08

Hyway, because of the scale of investment and the size of operation needed to develop new cars, take them to market and maintain them.

During the 90s we saw all the smaller companies in the world swept up by the big guys mainly because the lacked the resources needed to develop and build competitive vehicles.

Maybe we could see some much much smaller players emerge a few years down the road, but the majority of the business will be lost to America for good. It will certainly not be a short process.”

“I think once the fire is out we will see that Yogi. They're certainly looking for scapegoats, but in reality this is a systemic failure brought about by an ideology that says the market will self-regulate.

The credit-default mess and the mortgage crisis is essentially the market doing that.

The trouble is I think we need to set the ideology aside and realize there is some tangible value to stability in the broad market.”

“This is kinda the point Nigel - it's looking likely that without the bailout they won't get the chance to build these cars. Wasn't the volt looking pretty interesting?

They, along with the union, put themselves behind the curve. They should have been innovating a decade ago for today. And the Volt is interesting if by interesting we mean expensive and impractical.”

“Remember the failure of the CCCP? Here were are swimming toward the same life boat. Silly Conquer the World Capitalist.

We just don't fit through the injectors of our internal combustion friends anymore.
last edited: 11/10/08 8:34:56 AM”

“23 pct drop in stock today for gm. down to 3 bucks per share for a while!”

“hi Dan.�
Tllt
6:09:12 AM
11/10/08



LT is back?”

“Nicole... Homesteading today?! Really?”

“Sadly, we don't have the leadership on either side of the aisle that understand manufacturing, environmental, and safety issues in this country. NAFTA and GATT proved that.”
Phil
12:44:16 AM
11/10/08

Dittos on Phil's post, especially this part.

As far as a bail out for American automakers - I don't have a clear sense of whether we should try one. What I do believe is that the structure of the thing has to change and all the players will likely have to give up something. This could happen naturally or it could happen with the goverment stepping in to minimize the damage and aid in the transition and transformation. I don't think there is room for a Big Three anymore... maybe a big two. Execs, stockholders, union workers, everybody will need to give up even more. If we try to rescue all three without big changes, there will be no end to the subsidy.

My metaphor for what's happening: I have an in-law who is a charge and spend "debtaholic," her father keeps bailing her out every time she had a huge crisis - and never demanded any changes other than her promises to do better next time. He went from financially secure to balancing his retirement on a fairly thin margin and with the collapse of securities and housing prices he is now in trouble. He could have helped her some by taking her to credit counseling, settling her debts in a way that would cost her her credit rating and settled on a plan - but he just kept on paying off her huge debts in full and she never changed her ways for more than a couple months. Now they are both in the tank financially.”

“The problem with the government bailing out automakers is that it isn't like Warren Buffet coming in with a buyout or rescue package. Every single member of Buffet's team will be looking out for Buffet's interest and will make the best deal possible for him. The governments team will be mostly stocked with people looking out for the interests of everyone except the government's.”

“pegged.”

“Do you spend tax payers money to pay unemployment benefits (with lots of extensions!) to 1.25 million workers? Or lend GM some cash? Or strategically retrain the displaced workforce?

This, unfortunately, is the reality of the crisis we're in.”

“the reality is you pay the unemployment benefits - that's what its there for - and let what will be be what it will be. We are seriously #&%!$ing up this country with these bailouts because there are a lot more to come now taht we have started this”

“pancho silly”

“first of all gm has 335,000 employees.

second, a bailout would not be a loan. the government would buy a LOT of gm stock. gm would get the cash, waste it (albiet with a lot of government oversight), and then we would be back in the mess we are in today but with the us taxpayer stuck with a pile of worthless stock. well, we might by a year or two. just in time for the next presidential campaign.”

“I worked for GM from 1967 until they laid me off in 1982 (almost 15 years). It was a great company then, but in denial. Sadly, executive leadership is still in denial about how to compete with Japanese auto makers.

I was at a reunion this past weekend in Flint, Michigan and saw a lot of my old GM friends (most of whom just took a retirement package). Our conversations confirmed that GM leadership still does not understand how to compete.

One of my friends has worked on a joint venture between Isuzu and GM. He has made 48 trips to Japan in the last 10 years. He said one Japanese executive told him, "that the Japanese get extraordinary results from average workers because they have a good system. GM has excellent employees, but get mediocre results because they have an inferior system."

I think the best scenario would be if Toyota were to purchase GM. I believe that GM rank and file employees would be happy and welcome the new management. Many GM engineers are familiar with the Toyota Production System and try to do what they can, but company leaders still do not understand it.

Being a free enterprise person I am not for government bailouts generally. I would not complain if we loaned GM some cash, but I am not totally convinced it would work in the long run.”

“"Sadly, executive leadership is still in denial about how to compete with Japanese auto makers."

The American auto makers for years have decided what the public will buy where the Japanese auto makers let the public decide what they will build.

That is a one-sentence simplification, but not far off in my opinion.”

“I think we do need to demand some compromises from the auto industry if there is to be a bailout.

These companies have the abilitiy to help America move down the road to a greater degree of energy security.

We certainly can't just pour billions in and let them continue down the same road.

How all three of them failed to show any degree of foresight is totally beyond me.”

“They believe in miracles, sexy machines.”

“These companies have the abilitiy to help America move down the road to a greater degree of energy security.

How all three of them failed to show any degree of foresight is totally beyond me.


Word.”

“and yet you want to reward that management with government loans. let em fail. The number of cars that were being made will still need to be made. they will just be made by different companies still using american labor.”

“GM should change it's name to WeLieBull Motors.”

“I don't wantr to reward management at all. If they do get loans then there needs to be an agreement to limit compensation at boardroom level.

We're still living in hyway's little dream world where manafacturing jobs aren't being shifted overseas I guess, where median incomes aren't going down, where providing healthcare isn't a problem and where America is just a nation of whiners.
last edited: 11/11/08 12:37:18 PM”

“other than America is just a bunch of whiners I don't believe I have ever said any of those other things. I said life is tough stop whining and go provide for your family.”

“They just don't get it!

Auto company execs fly private planes to ask Congress for money:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html”

“I think Tango scooped you on another thread someplace.”

“Just read Phil's post on his history with GM. It's an interesting point of view - and fits what I keep hearing about GM. They seem to be too focused on profit/loss margins and not focused enough on engineering a quality firm and quality cars. The focus on cash bailout and unions and legacy costs is an example of this. These matter, but without a workable corporate plan and some wholesale restructuring American auto manufacturing will do what Britain's did - shrink into oblivion along with a lot of taxpayer money.

I gotta say, a Toyota buyout of GM would be really demoralizing to me and my knee jerk reaction is negative. I'll ponder that one a bit. Couldn't GM just try to hire away the right Toyota people?

Hwy's contrast with a Buffet bailout is also right on target.
last edited: 11/20/08 7:08:20 AM”

“Question for Phil or anyone else who might know. Is the culture in the Saturn division today any better than in the rest of GM?”

“(Sung to the tune of the theme of "The Brady Bunch")

Here’s the story about something shady
Of some guys from Wall Street who were in a jam
Their companies were losing lots of money
So they got a big handout from Uncle Sam

Here’s the story of some auto makers
Who were making products people wouldn’t buy
So they flew in on expensive jets
And they begged for a handout from you and I

And the day that we started giving money
To rich guys who were in a crunch
Lots of others learned from their example
And that’s how we wound up with the Bailout Bunch

The Bailout Bunch
The Bailout Bunch
That’s the way these guys became the Bail Out Bunch”

“So, We are paying Foreign Auto Co's to take Chysler off our hands? Will any of you buy a Fiat?”

“http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/23/autos/gm_unwind/index.htm?postversion=2009042315

This ought to have a positive effect on the economy this summer.”

“With the economy steadily going down the crapper I'll be surprised if GM or Chrysler even survive at all. It gets worse by the week. They are doing those bank "stress tests" with the results due out on May 4. I doubt they'll tell the truth, but it makes you wonder how much the FDIC can pay out if a bunch of big banks go under. Banks runs anyone?”

“chrysler's going into bankruptcy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090423/bs_nm/us_chrysler_treasury

i like the second paragraph

The Treasury has an agreement in principle with the United Auto Workers union to protect pensions and retiree health care benefits as a condition of the bankruptcy filing, the paper said

so now the tax payers get to pay these bloated benefits to the union's employees as well as their social security. i hope when we finally get to our socialistic state, they'll provide me with these great benefits when i retire.”

“It's much bigger than the unions and the chitty cars or even the mass of overpaid execs, it's our over indulgence in the use of their products that's killing our country.”

“even better baume...the 9 weeks GM will be closed...the Union Thugs STILL GET PAID!!!!”

“At this point I think the sooner Chrysler and GM go under the better for Ford. It might just be the shot in the arm they need.
last edited: 4/24/09 4:51:05 AM”

“even better baume...the 9 weeks GM will be closed...the Union Thugs STILL GET PAID!!!!�
theXL400
5:11:04 AM
4/24/09

Time to start eating their children!”

“The Dems put the auto industry in this situation, now THEY can get them out............the "blood" is on THEIR hands.”