Conservatism Has Failed

“What did I total here, 100 words? Little too much for you Strat?

I'll try this again.

A liberal wouldn't want to keep any private sector involvement in healthcare - so Obama is not a liberal.

A liberal would want to raise taxes for everyone - so Obama is not a liberal.”

“Other than just making the statement, can someone explain exactly how conservatism is responsible for the predicament of the Big Three? Freddie and Fannie?

And how would the opposite (or some other plan) have had a different outcome?
last edited: 11/20/08 4:23:11 PM”

“I heard some moron this morning commenting on how the wanting to get involved with restructuring the union deal with the car company is against their free market capitalist ideals. How if we really believed that then we should agree that a union has the right to make any deal it can get. Problem with that is that they are not using free market capitalist ideals when they cut that deal with a company that is forced by the government to only hire people from within a specific group; i.e. UAW members. (or dues paying non-members)”

“A view from The Economist.
The decline of the Republican Party

Many conservatives continue to think they lost because they were not conservative or populist enough -- Mr McCain, after all, was an amnesty-loving green who refused to make an issue out of Mr Obama's associations with Jeremiah Wright. Richard Weaver, one of the founders of modern conservatism, once wrote a book entitled "Ideas have Consequences"; unfortunately, too many Republicans are still refusing to acknowledge that idiocy has consequences, too.”

“ouch.”

“we lost because we were fighting an unpopular war and Bush was president. we lost because Obama was able to sell the c hange message. We lost because McCain is freaking old. We lost because piss poor banking practices blew up the economy right before the election. We lost because a charismatic black man romanced the media and they fell in love. We lost because republicans lost sight of their less government agenda they were supposed to represent. They lost because the people are fickle and like to go back and forth.”

““Other than just making the statement, can someone explain exactly how conservatism is responsible for the predicament of the Big Three? Freddie and Fannie?

And how would the opposite (or some other plan) have had a different outcome?
last edited: 11/20/08 4:23:11 PM”
Nonconformist
4:23:28 PM
11/20/08

Well I'm not sure what the point is - as you'll make no attempt to grasp what's being said but.

1) Modest regulation. It's not socialism to ask our financial system not to place trillion dollar bets with money they don't have.

2) This would have led to a modest downturn not becoming a global credit crunch.

3) They could have worked out that the interests of the Average American are not always those of the wealthiest individuals or corporations. Looking after the middle class would have lessened the effects of sub-prime, not led to the credit crunch, left consumer confidence in tact - kept people buying cars.

4) Healthcare crisis - I know you like to pretend it doesn't exist, but it does, and this is just one of the first few dominoes to tumble. The fact that we haven't tackled this has left a company like GM with huge legacy costs, and pressured the middle class on a rapidly increasing basis. You can't keep increasing the costs of life's essentials to the middle classes and expect them to keep on spending. They turned to credit to keep up, now that's come due.

5) Ignoring the fact that America uses the most oil, but has very little. Exposed consumers and automakers to world market. Fine, but don't try to blame it on others when price spikes have dramatic effects.

Modest fuel charges, increased tax breaks for smaller cars, fuel efficiency standards all would have helped.

There you go - you may not agree with them, but there are some answers for you - don't pretend those with different views from you are somehow devoid of thought.”

“Oh, and Freddie and Fannie are not the big problem here. There's just a small part in the a long chain of mistakes and a market out of control.”

“How they cling to Fannie & Freddie -----

F&F combined was less than 15% of the subprime mortgage collapse. � The implosion of unsecured credit default swaps and other derivatives was ten times the size of the subprime mess.

While the anti-regulation types keep bltching about F&F, in reality they constituted less than 1.5% of the problem.

Yet they continue to cling..... � like Saran Wrap.

”

““we lost because we were fighting an unpopular war and Bush was president. we lost because Obama was able to sell the c hange message. We lost because McCain is freaking old. We lost because piss poor banking practices blew up the economy right before the election. We lost because a charismatic black man romanced the media and they fell in love. We lost because republicans lost sight of their less government agenda they were supposed to represent. They lost because the people are fickle and like to go back and forth.”
hyway




McCain?

We?

Conservatism?

See, this is the vomit I'm talking about.

Since when is McCain a conservative?

He's left of center. Crap, a year ago Violin was spouting out how great he is.

Obama is THE MOST liberal us senator, ever - and y2 says he's not even liberal? wowza!

Newsflash people, WE lost because WE weren't presented by the two parties.”

“The point, Y2, is to prove that the failure of conservatism is what has the economy/country where it is today. You failed, but at least you took a stab at it.


And for the clueless trolls, Freddie and Fannie were the first of the sub-prime dominoes that were "too big to fail" which is why they keep getting mentioned or "clung to."”

“Well when you're coming from a viewpoint which doesn't care about facts and details, just that liberals are Kool Aid drinking dummies, then you're going to think its wrong.

It's exactly the response I was expecting - and the same one you always give.

Why is is wrong?
last edited: 11/21/08 6:08:03 AM”

“I think the article I linked to above does a pretty fair job of laying out some reasons, if anyone gives a rip.

There are any number of reasons for the Republican Party's defeat on November 4th. But high on the list is the fact that the party lost the battle for brains. Barack Obama won college graduates by two points, a group that George Bush won by six points four years ago. He won voters with postgraduate degrees by 18 points. And he won voters with a household income of more than $200,000�many of whom will get thumped by his tax increases�by six points. John McCain did best among uneducated voters in Appalachia and the South.

The Republicans lost the battle of ideas even more comprehensively than they lost the battle for educated votes, marching into the election armed with nothing more than slogans. Energy? Just drill, baby, drill. Global warming? Crack a joke about Ozone Al. Immigration? Send the bums home. Torture and Guant�namo? Wear a T-shirt saying you would rather be water-boarding. Ha ha...

...Republicanism�s anti-intellectual turn is devastating for its future.

Not to mention that Nixon's Southern strategy has come back to bite 'em in the butt.”

“doesn't care about facts and details...

That's funny because your post contained neither. Sure, it was peppered with generalities and talking points (interests of the Average American are not always those of the wealthiest individuals or corporations...Looking after the middle class...increasing the costs of life's essentials to the middle classes and expect them to keep on spending) but nowhere did it explain with facts how conservatism was/is responsible for any of the points you put out. Nor did you explain how a government (if that's who you think should handle it) that is fraught with crooks and buffoons (and can't even run their own cafeteria) can do better with a heavier hand than they have now.”

“I think it's a shifting of political ideas and labels also Sarge. I mean, liberaql today is not what liberal meant years ago. Originally it meant upholding freedoms and liberties.

We should do away with "conservative" and bring back Classic Liberal. We should also do away with "liberal" and bring back "Early 20th Century Progressive" as Hillary claims to be. Much more accurate IMHO.”

“Call it what you want, conservatism hasn't been in power for 80 years. The liberal, bail me out, philosophy has dominated the U.S. sense, and has really taken off recently. It is bad for America.”

“Libbies are so silly.”

“"Call it what you want, conservatism hasn't been in power for 80 years."

The Pteropus tokudae hasn't been seen in the past 80 years either. Scientists refer to this as "extinct".”

“Sorry about your Reich and all. � The big repackaging and marketing push should be entertaining.

Oops ---- House GOP Backs Away from Earmark Moratorium

”

“why should they punish themselves. The party in power has to take the lead in something like that. If the minority does it and the majority doesn't then the majority stays the majority and the minority stays the minority.

The democrats own government. They are responsible for all earmarks even if proposed by republicans because they are the ones with the power to approve or disapprove”

“The whole premise of this thread is, well, thread bare. Conservatism, liberalism, all isms are forever changing due to how life is full of, well...change. You are stuck on a word that you imagine to bw something, like a child clings to notions of childhood.

Relax. Life goes on. Obama says he will do whatever works. That instead of clinging to some perceived ideology is what works.”

“Conservatism has flunked out.”

“Good point Bill Clinton, using words for expressing ideas is overrated.”

“Mutt's troll has flunked out.”

“Obamy will make me not have to worry about paying my mortgage or gas in my car ever again!”

“Nonconformist
7:05:52 AM
11/21/08

Will you ever do more than criticize the views of others?

Maybe you need to hold a view other than liberals are dumb.”

“Everytime y2 thinks, an angel gets it's wings clipped.”

“Y2 thinks?”

“Oy vey....I give up.”

“#&%!$stomper's trolls flushed themselves down the toilet.”

“Stovie,

Have you ever heard of an angel getting it's wings clipped?”

“Which do you think is my troll, Tilt?”

“I think they're getting dizzy from circling the drain.”

“84, yes. ;-)”

“in circles....”

“I guess you don't have anything good to say about what Obama's done since the election so you have to concentrate on us losers.”

“sigh

whatever. don't you guys have work to do?
isn't that the conservative thing to do?
and you call yourselve conservative.

teehee”

“i'm conserving my energy for the weekend”

“What's this 'work' you speak of?”

“another circle....”

“we circle drains

you circle jerk”

“I know some die hard Marxist-Lennists who think real communism hasn't failed, because its never been tried. After all, Marx's account of communism involved transformation taking placed in the most advanced capitalist countries - ones that were highly industrialized.

So, those who think real free market conservatism hasn't been tried since at least the 1930s - can hang out with the communists who think their world views are right and have jst never had a real chance to be tested in the world.”

““I guess you don't have anything good to say about what Obama's done since the election so you have to concentrate on us losers.”
hyway
10:53:18 AM
11/21/08

On the contrary Hyway - that Conservative columnist you liked so much the other day puts it well. Obama's putting an impressive team together - bringing together the best talents.

Clinton at State is the move of a strong President.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/opinion/21brooks.html”

“Change.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!”

“And they wonder why they were rejected.”

“Here's a little snip from the part he didn't manage to read

Believe me, I’m trying not to join in the vast, heaving O-phoria now sweeping the coastal haute bourgeoisie. But the personnel decisions have been superb. The events of the past two weeks should be reassuring to anybody who feared that Obama would veer to the left or would suffer self-inflicted wounds because of his inexperience. He’s off to a start that nearly justifies the hype.”

“David Brooks a conservative!?

lololOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

That wraps up this thread in a nuttyshell.
-salebored”

“I think that Y2 gets it. Pedxing as usual makes reasonable intelligent comments.
The rest of you are "conservative" hand wringing nattering nabbobs of negativity to paraphrase Bob "Viagra" Dole.
Stovie.....speaking of change, how 'bout your Depends?”

“See, here you go again. Just cause you think Brooks isn't conservative doesn't matter. Who cares? Apparently, the man's opinions are valed enough...people pay to read his stuff. You? Ha!! A year ago many African Americans thought Obama wasn't "black" enough.”

“It's amazing - he's happy to use the term liberal to describe 99% of the population, yet the term conservative only applies to three men and a dog to the right of Bush.”