For all you Big 3 Basher's

“Nothing needs to be said... Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11

An interesting commentary...You might find this of interest:

CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's
contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.

The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee
contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept.
The company also offered ER response ! team services and office
space to displaced government employees.

2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee
contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's, and trucks.
3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and
victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation,funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.

7. Audi-Nothing.

8. BMW-Nothing.

9. Daewoo- Nothing.

10. Fiat-Nothing.

11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001

12. Isuzu- Nothing.

13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.

14. Nissan-Nothing.

15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.

16. Subaru- Nothing.

17. Suzuki- Nothing.

18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.
Condolences posted on the website Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep this information in mind.

You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by an American-owned and / or American based company. Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing at all to the citizens of the United States ...

It's OK for these companies to take money out of this country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things like this. Say thank you in a way that gets their attention.”

“I own a Hyundai!”

“GM has moved a whole bunch of factories down to Mexico over the last few decades, yet the price of the cars hasn't dropped and GM is still losing money.

Foreign car makers are actually opening plants in America and they are successful.

Why the difference?”

“The foreign owned companies can be pressured by their employees to donate to charity and match employee contributions. The financial division of these companies, thru regulations, are required to prove every year that they are helping out the surrounding communities. I am sure that would be public record, as the thrift I work for, matches employee contributions to charities, allows food drives, etc.”

“No doubt GM and others need to change the way they do business, and certainly the unions got way too much control of the situation.

However, if they acutally do go under, or even with all the downsizing to come, it affects SO much of Michigan. I'll likely lose my job as a teacher. :(

I don't want to think about the future without the Big 3....”

“The first customer at my previous employer to open my commodity to reverse auction and award all of the business to a Chinese manufacturer was Ford.

Honda is keeping my previous employer afloat right now.

All of these people that say buy American should just be honest because what they are really saying buy Michigan.”

“So you are saying we should buy poorly built, unreliable cars built by people who have to pay a mob boss to work just because their companies donated some dough? I didn't know buying automobiles was such a one-issue process. I'll pass your broken down ride on the freeway in my Toyota laughing all the way home.”

“Looks like ncthiker got a chain email and just posted it, it's all a lie.


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/automakers.asp

GM, Ford, and Toyota all donated $1 mil and only $1 mil each. Chrysler which was then foreign owned by Daimler donated $10 mil. Honda donated $1.5mil

http://web.archive.org/web/20011006175557/http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/finance/docs/2001/20010928_splash.jsp

Go buy a Honda ncthiker, they contributed more than any "American" owned company.”

“In Snopes:

Did you read the "important points to keep in mind are":

Doesn't mean that Ford didn't or could have actually donated more than whats listed.

I don't understand people like YOU, that want to see American Company's go belly-up, and millions of people loose their jobs.

I guess its all about YOU and F everyone else, Oh, and let me guess your probably from Ohio, maybe?

Where's the outrage for all the taxpayer money that went to the Financial Institutions?

They didn't even need to meet with the Washington idiots to receive all their freakin money.”

“People from Ohio aren't allowed to have opinions or state FACTS, Dub. ;-)



BIG 3 TO USA -
'give us lots of money without getting any guarantees we'll behave, or we'll make sure lots and lots of innocent people get hurt.'
last edited: 12/03/08 7:05:25 PM”

“I'm against all of the bailouts, it is fundamental wrong at every level of capitalism. You fail as a business, you go out of business. Check CNN, 61 percent of American's are against bailing out the big 3, 70 percent of Republican reps and 55 percent of Democratic reps are against it. Congress has been talking about giving American's a 2-month tax break which would be better than giving our hard earned cash to companies who make cars that no one wants to buy. Give the taxpayers their money, if they buy American cars then they survive, if they don't then the people have spoken.

The Big 3 could have avoided this by building quality cars instead of screwing people like me by building $h!t and then expecting us to pay outrageous prices to have them fixed. I have owned 3 GM vehicles that cost over $30K and they all had problems starting at just about 37K when they were out of warranty. I even drove my 2001 TransAM to traildays and it will be the last GM car I own for a very very long time. I just bought a $41,000.00 Tundra 4x4 DC Limited Sunday, gets 16mpg and was built by American's in Texas. It will outlast all of my friends "American" trucks by a longshot and it can tow 10,300lbs. With that purchase I just voted on Toyota and against the Big 3.”

“Yeah, I guess the Ford F-150, the best selling truck ever, for something like 20+ years running, is a piece of crap? Must be a lot of dumb people buying them.
I really don't care what the Idiots in Washington are for or against. Half are on the take of foreign interests, and the remainder are restroom stall wranglers or pedophiles.”

“hey Ford will benifit from the collapse of the other two. They will survive.

I don't think you are saying this, but I'll ask anyway. Are you saying that because the big 3 gave to charity $30 million the govt should loan them $30 billion”

“Is tilt trolling again?”

“No, I'm saying that these companies have done a lot of good, for many people, over many years and deserve a chance, even if it may not work.
These are loans, not a bail-out like the Banking Industry got.
But, if they get the money and still fail, then the money wouldn't be repaid, so, I can see why many are against it.
I've owned Fords all my life, and have had good luck with them. Also had one of the first Saturn SL-2. Only 7 available at the time, and it was one of the best cars, that I have owned.”

““Yeah, I guess the Ford F-150, the best selling truck ever, for something like 20+ years running, is a piece of crap? Must be a lot of dumb people buying them. ”
ncthiker

Now you get it! I'm from WV, rednecks buy them by the dozen and once they breakdown they just park 'em in front of the single wide and let 'em rot on the lawn and get another.

BTW, the Tacoma outsells Colorado and Ranger combined. Best selling light-duty for over a decade.”

“It's always a hoot to see a Lexus with American flag magnets plastered all over it. They're such patriots, donchaknow.

There's usually a "Drill Baby Drill" sticker too.”

“I've only owned cars built by the big 3. The GM car was crap. The Chrysler's were better - but only my current car, the Ford Taurus delivered as expected. I've had it for more than 11 years and more than 150K. The only mechanical problem I had for the first 90K was with the trunk and one window.

I think Toyotas and Hondas do a little better - and since their cars are as American as Ford, I'll consider them along with Ford when I buy again.

Thanks for posting the corrections Dub. I appreciate Snopes is careful about stating what they don't know. It was pretty obvious from the initial list - with all the "nothings" listed, that it was inaccurate.
last edited: 12/04/08 4:40:05 AM”

“I try to not allow politics to seep into every single aspect of my life which includes buying a car. Mileage and reliability are the two main factors when buying a car.

A patriotic feeling is rarely felt when your car won't start.

Why do I buy Toyota? Because there is no Japanese translation for "tow truck".”

“Dub, I'm glad that you are so happy with your new Toyota Tundra. I suppose when you part with $41,000 it's better to be ahppy then sad. Of course after adding up all that interest (if you financed) it'll be closer to $50K. And 16MPG! Whoa! Toyota had to close that new Tundra plant in San Antonio due to slumping sales. They have been affected by all this mess too.

We all have our opinions about cars. That's cool. Reminds me of being in jr higha nd arguing bout Mopar vs Ford vs Chevy. Ha!

The facts say that the F-Series and Silverado are still the top two selling vehicles of any kind. Their sales dropped, but they are still way up there. The Chevy Malibu actually increased it's sales by 35.4% while the Toyota Prius dropped 48.3%. Check out (read) the NY times business page from 12/3/08.

And regarding the bailout, it makes me sick too, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face dude. It's not just some simple argument about ideology. This is not like letting the guy with an unsuccessful pizza shop go out of business. Japan wouldn't let their carmakers go under.

Enjoy that big Toyota. It's no better and no worse. But, $41,000! Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Did you consider getting a used one and putting money in the bank for hard times? If the Big Three go under times won't be getting any better any sooner.”

“I must be lucky.. I have never been one to spend a lot of $$$ on cars.. If it has 4 wheels and runs I'm good..

So far.. 79? Plymouth TC3... Gave to my brother with 110,000 on it..

'84 Caprice Classic Totalled with 155,000 on it

'88 Mustang Donated to a friend with 193,000 (spent $750 for a rebuilt transmission at 112,000)

'96? Plymouth Acclaim.. Gave up the ghost at 192,000

'01 Hyundai Sonata.. Totalled with 115,000

'02 Chevy Impala, Put 95,000 on it in 2 years...

Currently driving a '04 Pacifica, 80,000 and it doesn't like the cold...

No real problems on any of the cars...

'32oz”

“Is a Chrysler built in Canada more "Uh-Merican" than a Toyota built in Tennessee?”

“GM wants to close factories and dealerships to cut costs. The other 2 want to do research to produce more efficient products. HMMM....I think GM sucks!”

“No. Actually, I think it's Nissan in Tennessee. Toyota is in KY, WV, CA, TX, ?.
Anyway, those Toyotas and Hondas and Hyundais built in the US are great and are American made. I'd buy em. The Big Three have built in problems (costs) that they don't have. Three Big Three are making better cars and trucks and to say they are junk is nonsense. If those cost probs can be cleared away and management changed, then things would be different. Americans make great cars and trucks.

I considered a Toyota Tacoma but it was too small for what I needed. The Tundra was overpriced and a gas hog. I went with a Ford PU. A bit less a gas hog and less expensive. To each their own.”

“I just got this in email and haven't checked any of the facts.




> A Modern Parable
>
> ?
>
> A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motor Co.)
> decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River.?Both teams
> practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the
> race.
>
> ?
>
> On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
>
> ?
>
> The Ford Motor Co, very discouraged and depressed, decided to
> investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made
> up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend
> appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people
> rowing and 1 person steering, while the Ford Motor Co team ha d 7
> people steering and 2 people rowing. Feeling a deeper study was in
> order Ford management hired a consulting company and paid them a large
> amount of money for a second opinion.
>
> They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat,
> while not enough people were rowing.
>
> ?
>
> Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent
> another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure
> was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering
> superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They
> also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people
> rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the
> 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,'
> with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rowers.? There was
> discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra
> vacation days for practices and bonuses.?
> The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of
> the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and
> teamwork posters.
>
> ?
>
> The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
>
> ?
>
> Humiliated, Ford management laid-off one rower, halted development of
> a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital
> investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the
> Senior Executives as bonuses.
>
> ?
>
> The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable
> to even finish the race (having no paddles), so he was laid off for
> unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold, and the next
> year's racing team was out-sourced to India.
>
> ?
>
> Sadly, the End.
>
> ?
>
> Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty
> years moving its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make
> money paying American wages.
>
> ?
>
> TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building ;more than a dozen
> plants inside the US. The last quarter's
> results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits, while Ford racked up 9
> billion in losses.
>
> ?
>
> Ford folks are still scratching their heads and collecting bonuses.
>
> ?
>
> ?
>
> IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.”

“U.S. Congress Debates Granting Aid to the Big 3 Automakers Amid Plunging Auto Sales, Credit Crisis

Big 3 automakers are seeking $34bn in Treasury assistance to avert bankruptcy amidst liquidity crunch, slumping sales and high operating costs. Ford seeking $9bn credit line. Chrysler seeking $7bn. GM seeking $12 bn in federal loans and $6 bn credit line. Big 3 plan to use the loan to reduce debt, number of factories and brands, develop hybrid cars and improve fuel efficiency, and reduce CEO and executive pay to $1 per year

UAW willing to modify labor contracts to reduce labor costs by allowing the Big 3 delay payments into the retirees health-care program and suspend the jobs bank program for laid-off workers”

“Why doesn't BIG OIL bailout the BIG THREE, don't they kinda need each other or has the fascism gone beyond that relationship?”

“If they collapse they will not completely collapse. They will become leaner stronger companies.

No bail outs, no stimulus, just get to work.”

“I'm against all of the bailouts, it is fundamental wrong at every level of capitalism. You fail as a business, you go out of business.

Preach on brother! Capitalism does not mean corporations assuming all profits and the tax payer assuming all risk and loss.

Let 'em sink or swim.”

“Don't let the capitalist pigs feed at the public trough. To survive they need to be fit and lean or they become food for some other capitalist pig.”

“The car biz is more like fashion clothing than it is a machinery manufacturing industry.”

“No no no...we need to find surviving successful industries and just fry them royally for being successful.

Just like the Government should set limits on how many points a player scores in a Basketball game to make it "fair" for everyone....(LOL).

Any notice the unions are in a veritable panic over the possible bankruptcy? Could it be that their contracts go defunct, then the Big 3 can actually get workers who will work?”

“"........then the Big 3 can actually get workers who will work"

Where, Mexico??

"GM has moved a whole bunch of factories down to Mexico over the last few decades, yet the price of the cars hasn't dropped and GM is still losing money."”

“Actually charlie, I only financed $9K. My Tacoma was paid off and they were offering double rebates aka $10K off making the truck an excellent buy. I needed a big truck and it's something that is not a daily driver and should last a lifetime, doubt I'll ever need another full size truck unless something happens to this one. The point is that I've never had a GM car last more than 3 years without a breakdown and I had a Hyundai that lasted 8 and 150K miles before it needed any parts including brakes. I wanted a truck that would last a couple of decades with no problems which is why I bought the Tundra. If I got an F150 I'd have to replace it everytime the warranty expired or as Nigal said, risk that patriotic feeling of forking out $1/mile to the tow truck driver.”

“what I want to see is this:

What percentage of different car brands of cars are made in the US, including parts and assembly?

what are car executives of different car brands paid? In salary? in bonuses? in stock options? in other perks? in retirement or severance pay?

what are car plant workers of the different car brands paid?

How many car company epmloyees earn over $500K? 400K? 300K? 200K? 100K? 75K? 50K

What percentage of their pay do they get when they retire, and at what age can they retire?

If there is a bailout, what will the car companies give up in terms of executive and worker salaries and benefits, how much of the money will go to buy parts from Mexican plants, how much will workers give up in retirements, how much will executives give up in bonues and retirements?

I'm inclined to let them declare bankruptcy, and let them renogotiate deals with the union and try to get solvent. Part of why Toyota is kicking their butt using US workers and plants, is that they are not burdened with the Detroit retirement loads. Another part is in quality and reliability, and better design.

If we bail out two losers, is that fair to the two US companies who are not losing? (Ford and Toyota)”

“I heard a report on NPR that $2000-$4000 of the price of every US car goes towards paying health care or retirement for past employees. That's $2000-$4000 that the foreign companies can either reduce their prices by or include that much more in options.”

“So, we need only young illegal aliens being hired by foreign Co's to do everything. When the aliens need medical or retire -deport them.”

“LAST Year...50 Million in contributions to congressional Races....much of that to the Michigan contingent...and who are three of the largest supporters of the Bailout?...yep.

Out of the three Michigan congressional delegation members who has the largest automotive (GM) stock portfolio with options worth 1 million? (AND by the way is married to a former auto industry lobbyist that now works for GM as a member of management?)...anyone? HMMMM?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/03/cbsnews_investigates/main4646424.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories
last edited: 12/04/08 11:08:22 AM”

“Our family`s first 11 to 14 cars were all GM (2 Fords, no Chrysler (Rumors have it that Chrysler always have a hard time starting in cold damp weather...ie Canada...so we stayed away from them)). They all started to breakdown around 70,000 kms....the Fords broke down earlier.

The last 8 cars we bought were Japanese (Although all made in Canada)...2 VW Golfs...one made in Germany (Better of the two) and the 2nd one made in Mexico. They all went past 130,000kms before anything serious needed to be replaced.....”

“dub

Well why didn't you just come out and say that big fella. It sounded like you were proud of paying $41000. Good for you. If they gave you that much off the price they were desperate to sell it and it was overpriced in the first place.
Anyway, it's time to let sleeping dogs lay. Enjoy that big rig.”

“I think both GM and Ford were turning a corner and producing better cars. They just got slammed by the credit crunch and now recession. Even Toyota and honda are now suffering.

We can fault them for sticking with SUVs, but that's where the money was - really until the summer. If they'd have switched to small cars five or ten years ago, then they wouldn't have sold. The American consumer laughed at small Euro-cars until gas his $4 a gallon.”

“Maybe someone has already mentioned it but you know that the "Big 3" are actually paying more out in retirement benefits than in current salaries. No wonder they can not compete. Something has to give. They need to go belly up and come back clean WITHOUT the unions. I am not a Big3 basher...I own a ford F250 and a Chryler Jeep Grand Cherokee. There is nothing wrong with their products.”

“Getting rid of the unions would be Stalinist.”

“The unions have become some sort of right-wing scapegoat here.

Given the mess we're in at the moment has come about because we've allowed the middle class to be screwed royally for the past 30-odd years (median incomes) should we really be questioning why they're paid more and not why the overseas plants are able to pay less.

We shouldn't be trying to create the lowest possible wages and fewest benefits if we want America to flourish.”

“....and how many American cars does Y2 own?”

“Someone still actually makes American cars? The thing I hated the most with my old GMC was having to have both standard and metric sockets to change something like the brake pads. Probably only 40% of the parts on that truck were made in the US and the truck was assembled in Canada.”

“Y2 - You are right about one thing. Median incomes gets screwed at every pass! I own two American cars but I still think American automakers are in a position that they can not compete at the same level as the foriegn competition. Right now, with the mess we are in economically, all car dealers are hurting but Toyota and Nissan are not asking for federal bailout.”

“whoa! dub, did i read you have a tundra? seriously... no trolling here... i am planning on trading in my silverado for a tundra in the next few months. i test drove one and am pretty sold. do you like yours? i would be interested in your opinion.

the ones i am looking at aren't 41k... lol!”

“Yogisan, I love the truck. I test drove all of the Big 3's 1/2tons and took my 5500lbs trailer for a test tow on each of them. The Tundra was a freakin' rocket, didn't even know it was there. I liked it best out of all of them. Didn't check out the Titan, wasn't interested.

I got the Limited which comes with an information center, leather, auto-dimming heated mirrors outside, all the bells and whistles--I know where a slate colored 08 is for $32 ($10K off) new. I also know where the SR5's (next trim level down) are and they are asking $28K for them, also $10K off. Those are all 5.7L V8 4x4's. If you're looking for the 4.7L or a 2x4 I'm not sure where to get the best deal. I needed a truck that could tow a lot more than my 4.0L Tacoma (6500lbs) so I had to go with a 5.7L. Already got over 700miles on it since Sunday.”

“TwoBeer - I see what you're saying. i think the entire situation is BS. If the entire country weren't in dire straights I'd say let at least one of them go - and there needed to be something done about the unions - but I don't see the unions were all bad.

Providing workers who given their lives to a company with a pension shouldn't be seen as some sort of extreme situation. And realistically, should the healthcare situation be so screwed that they have to keep paying for healthcare for retirees because there are so few decent and affordable alternatives.

And the reality is Toyota and Honda are Japanese companies and would likely to be bailed out by that government should the need arise.

They're basically far less exposed to the problems in the American auto market. It'll be interesting to see how they do over the next few quarters though. They're not really making so much money out of their Hybrids right now.”