WE SURROUND THEM!

“People are fed up....big deal. It's no surprise. They are spending/borrowing/printing all our money. DUH!


So, why do you libs keep calling me crazy? Meanness? Talk to my shrink? Because I peed my pants that time I was drunk with Stickmon?

What is it?”

“Their goal is to disrupt and get on the news ---- nothing else.”

“How would know what my goal is?”

“You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, then that my dear friend, is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."*

* Adrian Rogers, 1931*”

“Let me translate: them poor folks just don't deserve healthcare.”

“So strat. What do you think about the American middle and working classes. Have they been getting wealthier in the past few years?”

“don't you see, Rosey? They're only poor because they're LAZY!

(just in case it needs to be clarified - that was sarcasm)
last edited: 8/17/09 3:40:28 PM”

“Pssssyyyycccchhhoooooosssssss...

PHOENIX � About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday � the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.

Gun-rights advocates say they're exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and protest, while those who argue for more gun control say it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.

The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said.”

“... and sarcasm again...

they're just being patriotic and exercising their rights as Americans!”

“So let me see; if healthcare is a right, then what is food? How about shelter? Aren't those things even more important? Shouldn't they be rights as well? Where's it end?”

“Why do you guys keep prattling on about rights? Oh that's right to make it as though there's some sort of challenge to the constitution.

It's not abut rights. It's about delivering the best possible solution to the healthcare problems facing America.”

“Sadly, though the meeting disrupters are doing no more than stubbornly obstructing the decision of a majority-elected president and a majority-supported bill, they are exercising their constitutional rights. you have to accept the bad with the good, and these guys (and their counterparts - the klansmen, neo-nazis, and "god bless IED" wackos) are the downside to free speech - but they're as American as apple pie.”

“If ya don't want to answer then don't Y2. But don't simply try and discount the question. (s). That makes you look worse than giving a wrong answer.

So what you are saying is that not everyone deserves healthcare? Only certain people deserve proper healthcare? As in everyone isn't equal?”

“So Pepsi what makes them wackos and nazis? Besides they hold a view different than yours...
last edited: 8/17/09 5:24:39 PM”

“I didn't say they're wackos and nazis. However, I'd compare them to the other wack jobs in that they're exercising their free speech in a completely useless and likely destructive manner. Voicing dissent is one thing, but this is disruption for the sake of disruption. It isn't voicing dissent - it's trying to shut down communication entirely. It's a childish and counterproductive way to say "I don't agree." There ARE dissenters who are actively letting their opinions be heard - but these people are just there to shout down the entire meeting.

contrary to the conspiracy theorists who believe that gangs of thugs wait to beat down anybody who opposes this health plan, there is PLENTY of opportunity to voice disagreement and discuss it. These people don't want to discuss, they just want to fvck the whole thing up.
last edited: 8/17/09 5:34:29 PM”

“It is done in countries that think of more than trying to make the other 95% of the world live the way we wish. Only the price one pays for living in the worlds self appointed slave owner which has to ride master over is almost 7 billions slaves world wide. We surround them all alright.
last edited: 8/17/09 5:35:18 PM”

“They are there to disrupt (Armey, Dick sent them instr's how) ---- They are not there to help forge solutions. In that way they resemble Brownshirts.”

““If ya don't want to answer then don't Y2. But don't simply try and discount the question. (s). That makes you look worse than giving a wrong answer.

So what you are saying is that not everyone deserves healthcare? Only certain people deserve proper healthcare? As in everyone isn't equal?”
Nigal
5:35:39 PM
8/17/09

It isn't about rights. Simple enough answer.

Your other question - it's more a moral question and a question of the national interest.

Whether it's the correct thing for America to reform its healthcare system is a different question as to whether healthcare should be a 'right' or not.

It's a policy decision based on many factors, not a question of rights.
last edited: 8/17/09 5:49:32 PM”

“Sadly, though the meeting disrupters are doing no more than stubbornly obstructing the decision of a majority-elected president and a majority-supported bill, they are exercising their constitutional rights. you have to accept the bad with the good, and these guys (and their counterparts - the klansmen, neo-nazis, and "god bless IED" wackos) are the downside to free speech - but they're as American as apple pie.�
pepsisformosa
8:32:12 PM
8/17/09


Sadly?

Yeah, how sad. What has America become?


So then pass it. You have all the votes so pass the damn thing and be done with it. Who cares what a handful of loud wackos think? They're just haters anyway who can't stand a black man being president. They're sheep being lead by the nose. So.....pass it.”

“For some reason Y2 must still think we're under the king's rule and our silly little Constitution means nothing. It's about doing what's right, dammit! I wonder if his history teachers taught him that the Constitution was genius or a detriment to the better interests of the people?”

“So Pepsi what makes them wackos and nazis? Besides they hold a view different than yours...


Nigal, pepsi is.............non-partisan. He says so himself.”

“Personally I think the US should ditch the whole president/congress/Constitution thing and get ourselves a king and queen. I'd rather be ruled by royalty with all of us doing what's right for the good of the people and the country. Constitution be damned.

So if we change to some other type of rule, what kind of free stuff do we get?”

“in my opinion, nobody but me and my dependants "deserve" to have health care at my expense. it isn't up to the fed to take care of it for the poor OR lazy. it's up to them to take care of it on their own.

call me immoral, greedy, whatever you like. i've worked my a ss off to get to where i am and expect anyone who wants a similar lifestyle should do the same (in my opinion, the moral thing to do).

now, if the fed will allow folks to form co-ops and source their own rates, fine by me. just not by using government assistance (my tax dollars).”

“For some reason Y2 must still think we're under the king's rule and our silly little Constitution means nothing. It's about doing what's right, dammit! I wonder if his history teachers taught him that the Constitution was genius or a detriment to the better interests of the people?”
Nonconformist
4:18:41 AM
8/18/09

So why don't you tell me about the constitution and how it applies here NonC?”

“�Sadly, though the meeting disrupters are doing no more than stubbornly obstructing the decision of a majority-elected president and a majority-supported bill, they are exercising their constitutional rights. you have to accept the bad with the good, and these guys (and their counterparts - the klansmen, neo-nazis, and "god bless IED" wackos) are the downside to free speech - but they're as American as apple pie.�
pepsisformosa
8:32:12 PM
8/17/09

two things.

you discredit yourself by having to throw in your name calling (see bold above).

they aren't obstructing anything wanted by the majority. if the majority feels they want it, they have the votes to do it.
last edited: 8/18/09 5:11:17 AM”

“Since when does the majority get to vote, our representatives don't always vote for what those that elected them wants.”

“It's not abut rights. It's about delivering the best possible solution to the healthcare problems facing America.�
Y2
8:13:56 PM
8/17/09

Spoken like someone who doesn't live under our Constitution. No surprise then that it's a piece of paper that can be summarily dismissed.

It's a policy decision based on many factors, not a question of rights.
last edited: 8/17/09 8:49:32 PM�
Y2
9:00:37 PM
8/17/09

It's based on many factors, including rights. You can't see the connection?

So why don't you tell me about the constitution and how it applies here NonC?�
Y2
8:17:14 AM
8/18/09


So why don't you tell us about it and how it doesn't apply here? Oh wait---it's not about that, it's about whether or not it's the correct thing to do. Got it.


As an impartial observer from abroad, do you honestly think our government is capable of "delivering the best possible solution to the healthcare problems facing America"?

And while we're at it, you never answered my question about what exactly is wrong with the current system and why some half ass plan has to be rammed through congress RIGHT NOW.



cough*wastingmytime*cough”

“Y2 our founding fathers (as expressed in the Federalist Papers) were incredibly frightened in the thought of a GIANT Government that could answer all problems. They had suffered under a taxation system which the crown designed to cover the excesses of the Crown.

They realized that any government that was there to take "care" of us would also need support. They knew the only place that a government gets its "support" is to take from the people.”

“in my opinion, nobody but me and my dependants "deserve" to have health care at my expense. it isn't up to the fed to take care of it for the poor OR lazy. it's up to them to take care of it on their own.

call me immoral, greedy, whatever you like. i've worked my a ss off to get to where i am and expect anyone who wants a similar lifestyle should do the same (in my opinion, the moral thing to do).

now, if the fed will allow folks to form co-ops and source their own rates, fine by me. just not by using government assistance (my tax dollars).�
baume 66
8:15:45 AM
8/18/09


Yep, pretty much what he said.”

“Republican had the congress for 12 years and only increased the size of government more. Now the dems are doing the same thing , yet at a faster pace and if reps take over in 2010 they will increase it even faster. It's not the party , it's the big organizations that own the government getting what they want. But, you partisan opposing poles will go on helping these tyrants continue using you as street soldiers for their cause.”

“If you add up All the teabaggers at All the disrupted 'town hall' meetings, what's the actual number? Are we allowing a couple of hundred thugs influence health care policy for three hundred million people?

That's insane.


In their instructions (thanks Armey, Dick) they're explicitly told to spread out through the halls to give the illusion of greater numbers ---- So what's the reality? A couple of thousand, nationwide?

It's bull#&%!$.

”

“T*lt's right. So.....pass the bill. They can't be stopped so go ahead and do it.


Are we allowing a couple of hundred thugs influence health care policy for three hundred million people?

Sorry, I missed that part. So you're agreeing that the govt should NOT influence the healthcare system? Welcome aboard.
last edited: 8/18/09 6:24:29 AM”

“I do find it pretty funny that you guys prop up a failed ideology by trying to tie it to the constitution.”

“And while we're at it, you never answered my question about what exactly is wrong with the current system and why some half ass plan has to be rammed through congress RIGHT NOW.

Nonconformist
7:05:54 AM


I'll take a stab at answering that question. And, for the record, this is not defending any plan that is to be rammed through congress. Common sense tells me that anything as important as this issue is not to treated that lightly. Careful thought, aligned with maximizing benefits to the American public, is necessary for any reform. I am simply giving a few true examples as to why I feel reform is vital.


Just speaking for myself alone (and I emphasize that point), I am covered under a plan with a popular and widely known healthcare provider. Over the past few years, I have experienced some decisions on the part of these people that have raised my ire. Here are a few examples:

Last year, I was denied a stress test, that my PCP deemed necessary for me (and that I could not hope to come up with the 4 grand or so to pay for myself). He found some irregularity with an EKG snd ordered the test. It was never done. They let me go as far as the echo-cardiogram.

I have been prescribed medicine from my doctor for treatment of some complications that resulted from the side effects of other medication I am taking. I have to pay 14 bucks per pill because some bureaucrat told me that it is not medically necessary, contradicting a perfectly competent physician's diagnosis.

I have been denied medication on two occasions simply because it is too expensive and the provider decided they did not want to pay it.

I now pay 40 dollar co-pays for specialists and up to 50 dollar co-pays for certain drugs that I need, while my premiums have soared and provider benefits have suffered.

If you want to tell me that I have a crappy plan, and that you have a better one, then God bless you and I wish I were so lucky. I work for a huge law firm and the company we are with is supposed to be top notch. But, in talking to others in the NY corporate world, this is not a unique situation anymore. I am thankful that I have something. But, you can't blame me for wanting to get a better bang for my buck. Frankly, I have an uninsured child right now because the premium is out of reach at the moment. I am shoppong around to try and find an affordable alternative. We are a hard-working family in the working class of America. We pay our taxes and live a very normal life. Sorry if I feel that some better alternatives are deserved by people who have earned it...
last edited: 8/18/09 6:27:06 AM”

“We probably agree more than disagree Treebeard. You first paragraph is the key.

Common sense tells us that if the roof leaks we don't let the general contractor bulldoze the house and start slapping together a new one from the roof down.

Unfortunately the Chicken Littles and the loudmouths at the meeting get all the press.
last edited: 8/18/09 6:32:21 AM”

“failed ideology


We'll see. :)”

““in my opinion, nobody but me and my dependants "deserve" to have health care at my expense. it isn't up to the fed to take care of it for the poor OR lazy. it's up to them to take care of it on their own.

call me immoral, greedy, whatever you like. i've worked my a ss off to get to where i am and expect anyone who wants a similar lifestyle should do the same (in my opinion, the moral thing to do).

now, if the fed will allow folks to form co-ops and source their own rates, fine by me. just not by using government assistance (my tax dollars).�
baume 66
8:15:45 AM
8/18/09


Yep, pretty much what he said.”
Nonconformist
6:18:27 AM
8/18/09

Well then you boys don't really get it then do you. Perhaps thinking the thing through, and I know you've shown no sign of being able to do this, but try.

Like it or not your wellbeing is tied to the General wellbeing of America.

Healthcare is sucking in more and more of the income of every American. 16% a couple of years ago, what to they think, 18% this or next year - waaaayyyyy more than any other nation.

So take Treebeard's example. You'll say, and I know this, that he should have made better provision for his own healthcare (the fact that most of us rely almost entirely on our employers is beside the point), but there are millions like him. Each penny he is spending on healthcare is a penny he's not spending elsewhere in the economy, leading to either a decline in the broader economy, or perhaps more people running into debt (which the bank you borrow from will borrow from China or the middle east, or maybe Russia).

Now I'm sure you'll say there are free market solutions to this, that will bring costs down. But they are frankly all BS. They will leave a growing number of people uninsured, and because people aren't perfect, a growing number of people without any treatment.

Now you'll say screw them, they should have made plans, but just let it continue for a few years. Let people start seeing more of their friends and family members start to die because they couldn't afford the right treatment. Then see what starts to happen at election times.

You bleat on about the constitution but unless you accept reality rather than some dream-world conservative view of the world you're going to place it under far greater threat than a reform of healthcare ever will (it won't btw).”

““failed ideology


We'll see. :)”
Nonconformist
6:43:07 AM
8/18/09

It's already happened. You're just living in a pretend little world where you can ignore reality. Then YOU run around being Chicken Little, like you are now, when reality dares intervene on your little conservative fantasy.

It's also what's going on at these teabagging events.

"waaaaaa the constitution is falling....waaaaaaaa'
last edited: 8/18/09 6:45:23 AM”

“Well then you boys don't really get it then do you. Perhaps thinking the thing through, and I know you've shown no sign of being able to do this, but try.

Wrong.


You'll say, and I know this, that he should have made better provision for his own healthcare...

Wrong again.

Now I'm sure you'll say there are free market solutions to this, that will bring costs down. But they are frankly all BS...

Umm, wrong again....I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Now you'll say screw them, they should have made plans...


Wow.....four for four? Yep, wrong again.

You bleat on about the constitution but unless you accept reality rather than some dream-world conservative view of the world...


And again. Is that some sort of record for one post? Can someone check on that for me?

And you wonder why people won't engage you in grownup conversations. Mutt's right: you have a cartoonish view of a LOT of things.

Keep doing your little victory dance, Chicken Little, lol.
last edited: 8/18/09 6:54:14 AM”

“We probably agree more than disagree Treebeard. You first paragraph is the key.

Absolutely, my friend. I think this is a time where we should come together as a country. I am shaking my head at the polarization that is resulting from this. Hey, there are millions of us sharing the same freakin' problem! Why can't we entertain any of these proposals without freaking out and shouting each other down? The truth is, what's been put out there is so damned far from true socialism that the fear factor is downright pitiful and unfounded. On the other hand, sacrificing quality for timeliness (without careful consideration) is not the answer either. The problems exist and they do need fixing. Anyone who denies that is either very privileged or lying through their teeth or just trying to preserve the status quo out of fear. So, let's talk it out and learn how to listen to other potential solutions before throwing 'em down the crapper...”

“Ok, so I'll try to be more constructive.

The reforms (or the general concepts being talked about) are not knocking down the whole 'house' are they?
last edited: 8/18/09 6:57:17 AM”

““We probably agree more than disagree Treebeard. You first paragraph is the key.

They why are you on here every single day taking shots at people?

Perhaps I do get your views wrong, but then you never seem to have the balls to put them out there in the first place.

You prefer to sit there and snipe at the views of others.
last edited: 8/18/09 7:00:13 AM”

“fail
last edited: 8/18/09 7:02:21 AM”

“Lets see NonC - what you're entire post about how wrong I was consisted of

Wrong.
Wrong again.
Umm, wrong again....I'm starting to see a pattern here
Wow.....four for four? Yep, wrong again.
And again. Is that some sort of record for one post? Can someone check on that for me?
And again. Is that some sort of record for one post? Can someone check on that for me?

And you wonder why people won't engage you in grownup conversations. Mutt's right: you have a cartoonish view of a LOT of things.

Keep doing your little victory dance, Chicken Little, lol.

You're pathetic.”

“Y2, you must understand that when in the USA, you are always still fighting the civil war and have to adjust all logic and reason to defend that attack.
An example; when you hear the term Blue Dog, that is a legislator that is a rebel dressed in a union blue uniform.
last edited: 8/18/09 7:20:44 AM”

“GOOD Lord...Tree and Y2 following Saul Alinsky but adding the "WHO ME?" defense...
Hypocrisy is so much fun ain't it guys?”

“Nothing substantive from non....there's a shocker. Maybe people would hae a little more respect for you if you proposed a solution rather than just shouted down everyone else's points. Oh wait. I know. There's nothing wrong. The system is great the way it is.

As Y2 pointed out, getting primary care and PREVENTATIVE care into place would easily save this country hundreds of billions of dollars a year in lost productivity, not to mention insane medical bills because conditions are allowed to deteriorate. When Little Joe's Sandwich Shack goes under because his two uninsured employees come down with swine flu and the guy can't run the joint by himself, he doesn't make money. He doesn't pay wages out to two people who would be spending money. Those people are forced to go to a doc in the box for an insane amount of out-of-pocket money, or they take it to the public system and we all pay out, or maybe they just get sicker so the bill REALLY racks up for something simple that could have been prevented or treated in an early stage when it was less expensive.”

“lol Saleboard, I'll never quite understand it ;o)

As for engaging in grownup conversations - am I really missing out on much if NonConformist and Sarge can't manage it?”

“Okay I will try,

Rosey I agree with the need for more available Primary Care and Preventive care. But sadly the HUGE majority of the "free medical care" crowd will use Neither.

Going to a primary care physician means A. you gotta get up on time and go, B you gotta pay a Co-pay At the OFFICE (usually $10 or $25), C you have to go PAY for those medicines you may be asked to buy.

The reasons the ER's (the most expensive thing to run in any hospital) are overloaded is that they HAVE to treat, they are open whenever, and can often cut free scrips for the people.

Next would be addressing Preventive care. OKEEDOKE...ya wanna tell me how effective that will be in the lower income crowds?

Sorry I spent almos 20 years in Public Housing Administration. Most of the people in there are permenant victims who demand it be DONE FOR THEM. Ya wanna compare the number of Type 2 diabetics who overload stretchers and damage medic's backs?

Ya wanna talk about life long parasites who see another injury or medical problem as another shot at the increase in FREE MONEY for "dis'bility"?

No if you want to change the system you have to start by find where the fails are. You have to find a way to make "RESPONSIBILITY" part of the system.

Tell you what rosey, go spend a week riding with EMS and see what you think.”

“You are bumping into the same resistance HC reform is.
They have extrapolated what the south would be like had they won and live in the fantasy daily.
last edited: 8/18/09 7:40:14 AM”