WE SURROUND THEM!

“GOOD Lord...Tree and Y2 following Saul Alinsky but adding the "WHO ME?" defense...
Hypocrisy is so much fun ain't it guys?�
theXL400
8:30:38 AM


WTF are you talking about? Do you even read anything you respond to? You are part of the problem here, whether you want to admit it or not...”

“
"The South Shall Sink Again!!"

”

“so y2, if we disagree with you, we "just don't get it". of course we wouldn't because we show no signs of being able to. can't you discuss anything without trying to insult people?

treebeard, i'm sure my plan is very similar to yours. i don't disagree with the fact the system needs work. i have been fortunate not to have to take meds over the years, though my son has run up some rather large bills for me. i didn't always have the cash on hand to pay up front. i still wouldn't if something large happened today. like i'm sure you do, i do what i have to to take care of things.

my opinion still is though, no matter what the government does, it should not pay for any of it with tax moneies. my entire contention rests in the belief it is not the federal governments businiess. they should not be meddling in it.”

“I'll admit to being a little combative Baume. You need to be on here.

But ok, I'll phrase it differently. There's a bigger picture going on beyond your personal desire not to see your taxes be used to help someone else in some way or another.

The bigger picture is that like it or not, we're all in this together. Unless we make the average American better off and able to spend again, the economy will continue to slide, and will America. It may even cost you directly.

You could argue that we'll all be better off if individuals thrive, but you certainly didn't frame it in those terms, you said you don't want you hard-earned cash to be spent on other people's healthcare.”

““Okay I will try,

Rosey I agree with the need for more available Primary Care and Preventive care. But sadly the HUGE majority of the "free medical care" crowd will use Neither.

Going to a primary care physician means A. you gotta get up on time and go, B you gotta pay a Co-pay At the OFFICE (usually $10 or $25), C you have to go PAY for those medicines you may be asked to buy.

The reasons the ER's (the most expensive thing to run in any hospital) are overloaded is that they HAVE to treat, they are open whenever, and can often cut free scrips for the people.

Next would be addressing Preventive care. OKEEDOKE...ya wanna tell me how effective that will be in the lower income crowds?

Sorry I spent almos 20 years in Public Housing Administration. Most of the people in there are permenant victims who demand it be DONE FOR THEM. Ya wanna compare the number of Type 2 diabetics who overload stretchers and damage medic's backs?

Ya wanna talk about life long parasites who see another injury or medical problem as another shot at the increase in FREE MONEY for "dis'bility"?

No if you want to change the system you have to start by find where the fails are. You have to find a way to make "RESPONSIBILITY" part of the system.

Tell you what rosey, go spend a week riding with EMS and see what you think.”
theXL400
7:47:08 AM
8/18/09

So what's the solution XL, let them die?

I guess you could be onto something if it weren't for the fact that every other modern nation offers healthcare access to all its citizens at a much lower cost than the USA.”

“'The South Shall Sink Again!!"'

Is'nt enough Ice for the global coolers to melt to cover the _hole south.

Doesn't matter, all the KKK sheets I make have built in water wings for water angels.
last edited: 8/18/09 8:36:54 AM”

“Baume, I agree that trying to pay for improvements with our tax dollars alone is the least desirable solution. The fact is, though, there are ways of cutting into those costs without resorting to that. At least, not as a first resort.

We need to simplify this system. The complexity that leads to duplicative billing processes and lack of standardization creates enormous cost.

It is estimated that 25% of dollars spent are not on patient oriented service, but on administrative cost.
The red tape alone is costing billions. This money can be better spent.

I am not anywhere near an authority on this issue and I try to pick my words and ideas carefully before putting my foot in my mouth on this. But, if we start to approach if from a more pragmatic stand, then maybe we can trim the fat from this little by little and get some efficiency out of it. The system, simply said, is not efficient for the amount of money that goes into it...
last edited: 8/18/09 8:51:57 AM”

“Tree, if you were expert enough to be confident, you would be owned by one side or the other and thus incredible.”

“I'm entering this a bit late today, but...

XL, I agree with you completely about the lifelong parasites that stand to find a much more accessable teat from universal healthcare. It isn't fair. It's disgusting and parasitic and it's a complete injustice that people like us have to work and pay taxes so they can get free health care. But I'd argue that the majority of the people who don't have health care right now (and need it) aren't those parasites. Not everyone is lucky enough to work at a job that offers insurance (or to have a job at all). And if these people need some sort of health care, they're likely screwed. I think it's more of an injustice to ignore people who are just plain down on their luck, in order to ensure that we don't accidentally feed a parasite here and there as well. That's like lowering the standards of our justice system (can they get any lower? lol) and accepting that innocent people may be imprisoned, but it's okay as long as we get all the criminals too...

Think about it. If you were to lose your job and weren't able to find a new job immediately, what would happen if you got really sick or broke your leg or needed your appendix out? Would you be able to afford your medical bills? I know I wouldn't, if it happened to me. I'd probably have to either go untreated, or declare bankruptcy. We're lucky in that we are insured and the costs to us for any medical treatment are relatively minimal, but a lot of people aren't lucky - that doesn't make them freeloaders”

“Tree in answer to your question...Rules for Radicals Rule #12 Saul Alinsky...read it very instructive.

Y2, what I am saying is (and you need to understand I have NEVER seen a patient with "thu spells" die) there needs to be some responsibility.

What we are discussing is NOT Health Insurance but HEALTH PAYMENT.

See I have insurance through work, to cover IF I need it. If there are a bunch of major claims my price goes up (yep that happens company wide as the cost of our plan rises). For free health care there really is no cost its government they can just (as we are seeing) raise the cost to the producers.

Pepsi...I truly cannot believe what you are writing.

OKAY here is the game in AMERICA with eeevil health care.
Emergencies (broken legs, appendix etc) are treated REGARDLESS of ability to pay. Please show me one ER that has turned a patient away with a life threatening illness in the US and I will show you a Hospital begging to be sued out of existence.

Another thing I know is that I have seen hospitals take $20 a month for lifetime to pay off a bill (would never be paid off) but the next thing is "what was it worth". Transportation is a necessity for many but there is no FREE CAR CARE to keep it running.


What is killing us is the people who go to the ER for every sniffle, 'spell" or drug need. They do it BECAUSE it is more or less "FREE". What is killing us is the line of SCAMS for medical care (google the word Medicare Scam). These people have abused the crap out of the system. What do we do to them?

And Finally, Tree, do you honestly think involving the Government will "reduce the red tape costs"?”

“Every time I see this thread I hear the Dramatic Hamster Music and crack up.


But Seriously ----

There's another very real possibility, Pepsis: where you *think* you have insurance and you wind up diagnosed with something the least bit out of the ordinary.

Treatment Declined. Then they've taken the money and you go bankrupt anyway.... or die waiting for treatment. It happens every day in this great land of ours.”

“And Finally, Tree, do you honestly think involving the Government will "reduce the red tape costs"?�
theXL400
12:49:47 PM

Granted. They have never been known for this type of undertaking. At the same time, who broke the system, resulting in unwanted by-products such as all this red tape?


Answer: The private sector...”

“Nothing of substance, no thoughts of my own, taking shots at people, blah, blah, freaking blah. What a bunch of crybabies. You don�t have to be combative here, you CHOOSE to be combative here. My firsts posts in fuego a few years ago were asking people why they believed what they believed. In other words, back it up and convince me. The replies: nothing; insults; thought projections; assumptions---the list is endless and the posters were the usual gang of Kool-Aid drinkers. If you give insults, expect insults back and quit #&%!$ing about them. So cry me a river and keep whining about non-specifics while you continue to speak in platitudes and give none of your own. You guys are great at connecting the dots from A to Z, but you continually skip B through Y.

If you want to convince me that you and the US F�n Government have all the answers and are competent enough to handle anything, especially healthcare, then just do it and for God�s sake quit whining about the doubters.

http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/53805,-1.php”

“Tree, have you ever talked to someone in the Medical industry about who screwed up the system? Take a day go to your GP and just talk about the miles and miles of paperwork the Government has them fill out. And guess what...that takes time and costs money.

Tree just do some research I have read your stuff here you are smarter than to just swallow the entire EEEVIL Hospital Industry line. Go see the crap they have to deal with from the government.”

“Nonconformist
12:06:39 PM
8/18/09

Oh I'm not the one crying here. I'm perfectly able to take care of myself.

But if you act like a dick, then I'm not going to shy away from pointing that out to you.

You the one that comes on every day telling people (libbies) how dumb they are, but you can't seem to get beyond 'kool aid drinkers'.

I hadn't posted for months, and I checked in and there you were '....blah blah blah, stupid liberals.... tilt, MarkO, Y2'.... Kool Aid drinkers (frankly you deserve some abuse every time you bring up that term).

But then you're the cool funny guy, so much sharper than those dumbass libbies aren't you. You don't get involved in those left vs right pissing matches do you. You sit there above the fray, though the only #&%!$ you throw is at the stupid liberals.”

“If you want to convince me that you and the US F�n Government have all the answers and are competent enough to handle anything, especially healthcare, then just do it and for God�s sake quit whining about the doubters.

http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/53805,-1.php”
Nonconformist
12:06:39 PM
8/18/09

And it's pretty clear no one will convince you of anything. But that's what we're here for. Liberals put their views forward, then you tell them how stupid they are, how smart you are, then post a link to a BS little thread like you did there.

Why didn't you link to your other thread about how great you are. I mean you really look funny in this one.

http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/53806,3.php
last edited: 8/18/09 1:20:01 PM”

“He would throw stuff at smart liberals but thats like finding a virgin at the Clinton Compound. (LOL)...

I'm SORRY...Lord Forgive me and send me down with the pygmies.....(LOL)

In the end I agree there needs to be some sort of HEALTH Insurance available to everyone. But is this insurance of payment.

Insurance (like car insurance) you get to protect IF something happens. Most people in favor of the Government plan seem to want something that will PAY for everything...Y2 isn't that a bit like hearing someone call for universal car insurance and then demand it also cover DUI wrecks, speeding ect.?

As of today I have yet to see a patient in need denied care....it can't legally be done. My problem is that there has NEVER been a government program that has performed even close to expectations.”

“*snicker*
Thinking you are going to get anything other than the standard democrap talking points from either treebread or y2 is rather foolish.”

“Poor MistforConnon, you are surrounded, LMAO”

“I dunno XL. There was some truth in what the Whole Foods guy wrote in the WSJ the other day that he's getting all the chit for now. There's a possibility there, but I also think there's a lot of holes in it.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I think we've got to start moving to try and find them. The whole 'Just Say No' thing isn't getting us anywhere though.”

“Ok NonC. I'll try to explain where I'm coming from here.

If you went into a bar and discussed politics every day, and this one guy always shows up, never adds anything, just calls them 'Kool Aid Drinkers' and jokes about how stupid they are - wouldn't you expect them to react to that after a few years of the same BS?
last edited: 8/18/09 1:47:53 PM”

“"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

- JOHN ADAMS .”

“Are there two Y2s that post here--because I don't think this one reads his own posts?

That's fine Y2, take whatever road you want with me, I'm fine with either one. Keep on assuming your little assumptions and talk the talking points all the while accusing the other side of being the Kool-Aid drinkers. (Doesn't sound like anyone will convince you of anything either, lol.) Either way, my questions are still out there to be answered (they usually are) and I remain unconvinced.”

“"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin”

“Ooh! I like that one!”

“doubt it's really franklin - I've seen it attributed to all the usual quoteworthy people - Lincoln, Franklin, Einstein, Twain... same with "Better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it"”

““Are there two Y2s that post here--because I don't think this one reads his own posts?

That's fine Y2, take whatever road you want with me, I'm fine with either one. Keep on assuming your little assumptions and talk the talking points all the while accusing the other side of being the Kool-Aid drinkers. (Doesn't sound like anyone will convince you of anything either, lol.) Either way, my questions are still out there to be answered (they usually are) and I remain unconvinced.”
Nonconformist
3:00:55 PM
8/18/09

So you're saying. "All you libbies line up and 'convince me' of your views. And I reserve the right to call you a #&%!$ if I don't like them."
last edited: 8/18/09 3:19:28 PM”

“This board is the microcosm of congress, really no subject just messengers being hijacked and verbally abused and accused of being everything that fourth graders can conjure.

47 million uninsured + 9 million illiens= 28 million (pop.of Afghanistan) + 28 million(pop of Iraq).”

“The people that don't want a solution to the uninsured should be taken for civic duty by becoming the lucky ones that tell the uninsured they get no treatment. In a locked room, alone and unarmed with the complete family. Oh, and cancel their insurance before they start the job.”

“
Here's partial list of companies who pulled their ads from Beck's show after he called the President a racist:

Allergan (maker of Restasis)
Ally Bank (a unit of GMAC Financial Services)
Best Buy
Broadview Security
ConAgra
CVS
GEICO
Lawyers.com
Men's Wearhouse
Procter & Gamble
Progressive Insurance
RadioShack
Re-Bath
Roche
Sanofi-Aventis
Sargento
SC Johnson
State Farm Insurance
Travelocity
and......................... Wal-Mart


Sayonara, dude.

”

“^^^^List of companies to support^^^^”

“Purely of spite they may subsidize that chicken breast.
last edited: 8/18/09 9:16:21 PM”

“'While advertisers abandon Glenn Beck, the audience clearly isn’t. It is still beating all the 5pm cable news network competition…combined. Last night, in viewers, and adults 25-54 and 35-64.'

Wanta buy a Henry Rifle?”

“Ok NonC. I'll try to explain where I'm coming from here.

If you went into a bar and discussed politics every day, and this one guy always shows up, never adds anything, just calls them 'Kool Aid Drinkers' and jokes about how stupid they are - wouldn't you expect them to react to that after a few years of the same BS?

So you're saying. "All you libbies line up and 'convince me' of your views. And I reserve the right to call you a #&%!$ if I don't like them."
last edited: 8/18/09 6:19:28 PM�
Y2
6:31:11 PM
8/18/09


Let me explain it to you this way: if you went in to a bar everyday and there were constant discussions about how the bar could be more successful but the advice was never any more than non-specific tips, criticisms, or worse---suggestions to let someone else take over the bar, and everytime you questioned the plans or the logic you never got an answer or were insulted, wouldn't you react to it after a few years of the same?

When I see bullshiit, I call bullshiit. When I see facts and results, I give credit. Liking the views or results has nothing to do with it. Stop being so full of yourself and constantly questioning my motives.

PS: I have regularly criticized both sides of the aisle here. Have you?”

“They can't face the facts about their churches and it's leaders being a bunch lying power hungry crooks. They look back at the previous 8 years and can't understand why they were ousted from power-George wasn't conservative enough. And now they want to condone the very activity they though so repugnant when peace activist did it.”

“Tree, have you ever talked to someone in the Medical industry about who screwed up the system? Take a day go to your GP and just talk about the miles and miles of paperwork the Government has them fill out. And guess what...that takes time and costs money.

Tree just do some research I have read your stuff here you are smarter than to just swallow the entire EEEVIL Hospital Industry line. Go see the crap they have to deal with from the government.�
theXL400
2:05:21 PM

Ok, I can see where issues concerning Medicare and Medicaid can run into some gov't red tape (although the hospitals may share a role in the inefficiency of the administrative quagmire also). But, where does the gov't fit into the picture concerning private insurance issues?”

“Tree....really? Where does Private Insurance fit in Government oversight?

Well there are often requirements of "minimum provisions of policies" Like making someone carry "prenatal and delivery" in a policy when they clearly will never have children. Or some of the wierd mandates.

I have always been a big fan of "cafeteria style" where you pick what you want with the requisite cost.

Here is one tear into a Government Attempt at Health Care...by a "Gasp" Republicrat (yes I think Mitt was more of a moderate than a conservative and did not vote for him).

Tree, in my part in my company I have to review health plans etc. I can tell you that if we could go with cafeteria style (rather than government mandated stuff) we could save thousands each year.

Here is one article to check out (don't know the site reliability but some good information)

http://www.libertyreborn.com/2009/08/02/why-is-private-health-insurance-so-expensive-thank-government/

Look my ex has some serious health issues (preexisting) and is a private contractor so health insurance is a joke cost wise. I think we need something but the question is do we want Insurance (meaning planning for tough days) or Easy Payment( meaning a government program that writes checks).

Years ago in one of the states I lived in there was a "state" pool for difficult to insure drivers. Granted it was a bit steep for the drivers to get insurance and their deductible was a bit high (I think 2,000 or more) but it covered them for Liability if the worst case scenario occurred.

I would like to see a system that would cover "higher end" patients with a resulting increased deductible and more stringent requirements. Say if you have preexisting of Emphasyma you cannot smoke. In otherwords "yes we will cover you but we are going to have a bit more say in what you do in your life".

last but not least I remember all too well the 200 MILLION figure of HOMELESS IN THE US in 1980's. WOW it was horrible and we were treated nightly to congressmen pushing bums off exhaust vents to "share" their experience.

Then they census did a try at counting homeless. Their number was around 200 thousand and we were told that this was incorrect. Granted yea they might have been a bit low (I was led to understand they used statistical data so they may have over counted) but um...by the factor of 100? I don't think so.”

“PS: I have regularly criticized both sides of the aisle here. Have you?

This is the biggest crock I've read on here in a while. Hey, maybe since the last time non posted...”

“Rosey I think Non was pretty harsh on the Bushies in the last administration for their waste.”

“Hmmm. Must be my selective memory. OK.”

“Ah whatever. Probably best if you follow Stove Stomper to ignore.
last edited: 8/19/09 8:48:19 AM”

“That's a better crowd, they usually are 70% obese people witt grate Spealin skilz. The guy with the striped shirt says it all.”

“

"Angry Mob"




"NO Pubic Option"

^{(but check out that mouth)}





"Youth in Asia"

”

“Apparently Tilty believes that Reading Legislation is not part of the Representative's job....”

“Why would they read it when the HCinsuranceCos told them not to.

The 'angry mob' women in the hat is also the 'no public option' women with a flag, on a different day.”

““Rosey I think Non was pretty harsh on the Bushies in the last administration for their waste.”
theXL400
8:09:00 AM
8/19/09

So he thinks he's above party politics. Thinking Bush is too liberal is hardly sitting him in the middle as some impartial judge.

I don't know, perhaps I'm being too harsh, but where does the arrogance come from to think that political discussion involves asking people to convince him of something, then pointing his thumb up or down on it. If he's going to do that at least have the decency to actually tell them why they didn't 'convince' hom'. (I disagree with almost everything you say XL, but at least you're willing to put your views out there.)

Fine, do that, but don't be surprised if after several years of never putting his own opinion out there someone finally tells him to shove it up his ass.

Tell you what NonC - why don't I treat you like you treat others.

Why don't you convince me that you're not FOS. Of course I'll #&%!$ you off if I'm not convinced.

last edited: 8/19/09 11:24:06 AM”

“No Pubic Option for you ----”

“Now you're making stuff up, no doubt based on the emotional cartoonish characterization you have of me which can't be much different than you have for whatever generalized "right wing extremist" fabrication you hold in such fear.
~Mutt

Assumptions, thought projections, myopia...that's all you've got. You go ahead and respond to me in whatever way your heart desires and all the while keep peddling what you're peddling, lol. I'll call it like I see. Feel free to do the same, just quit whining about it.”

“Poor 'squealer' t*lty has been reading to much DU.”