Tea Party

““Perhaps we should call you Butch, Sargie.”
MarkO
6:39:03 AM
2/23/10

“sexist comments ... typical”
HighPlainsDrifter
6:40:17 AM
2/23/10

Is that offensive to your feminine side?
Would you prefer something less masculine?”

“Okay so we go to ancient history...granted it was a fund that everyone contributing was "contributing". WE have to remember Marko that most people in the nation do not PAY taxes.

marko you are aware that there are preliminary plans for EMS providers that would allow Med Control to issue "DNR orders' for patients in the field.

meaning if you were "cost prohibitive" to treat EMT's would just sorta "meh" and leave.”

“Is that offensive to your feminine side?
Would you prefer something less masculine?”
MarkO

Of course not. You made that comment after the posting of a female. Rachel Maddow. That just shows where your mind was, and says nothing about me.”

“I believe you are full of crap, Dan.

Why did you post Rachel's photo, Sarge?

Your posting of that picture says a lot about you, Butchie Boy.”

“Why did you post Rachel's photo, Sarge?


Because she is a lead voice of MSNBC, where I had been saying you get your thoughts from.
last edited: 2/23/10 7:35:39 AM”

“So tell me, I know what your butch comments say about you. What did posting that have to do with me?”

“MarkO, you can't possibly think that your Teamsters Welfare Fund example answers those questions?

Those questions are at the very heart of the debate on healthcare. Since the majority of Americans are against a single payer system, I thought you might answer those questions as a way to present your views.


Five simple questions:

1. What sources of information can you point to that would lead us to the conclusion that a single payer system is the "most efficient"?

2. How would you explain that, as the government's percentage of healthcare delivered has risen, healthcare costs have skyrocketed?

3. How would your single payer system be different from that in Europe where they can no longer afford their government healthcare?

4. How would you dispute Hayek's argument that, as government grows, we lose freedom?

5. Considering that medicare is in deep financial trouble, how would your single payer system get it right?


Believe me, I am VERY open-minded to discussion on any and all issues. I have changed my positions on issues as I've encountered more rational information. So I'm not making light of the fact that, if you can present a rational argument, I'll be open to a change of ideas. You'd be doing me a great service. You'd be doing the American people a great service if you could logically present your position.

But, since the majority of people don't favor your single payer system, we obviously haven't seen the logical argument yet. We have, however, been inundated with name-calling such as "Retard", "Racist, "Selfish", and "Redneck." A search of the internet provides enough of that anti-intellectualism to last a lifetime.



Nope, I'm not asking you for a date. I wouldn't want to make your blow-up doll jealous. But I will offer to buy you both lunch or dinner.

We'll be coming from Laconia, across the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, north up the Lake Champlain islands, down NY past Plattsburgh, over to NY 30, down to Saratoga Springs, through the Catskills, and down to Pompton Lakes NJ, before I head home.”

“LOL...the funny part of Marko's single payer system...it WASNT unaccountable GOVERNMENT.”

“This was done before the insurance companies spent millions of lobbying and advertising.

http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html
last edited: 2/23/10 8:02:41 AM”

“We have, however, been inundated with name-calling such as "Retard", "Racist, "Selfish", and "Redneck."

Yup, and "nazi" and "bigot" as well.

I don't care to get into a discussion with a corporatist who thinks he can change my mind and in the event that my mind cannot be changed resorts to calumny.

There was a time when I was your "communist" and that somehow evolved into "nazi" and "bigot".

Are you passing through Maryland?
Perhaps it can be a "date".

I had heard that Laconia was a sort of "thug fest" with quite a bit of debauchery and a pile of burning cars and nudity and, and, and.......”

“One more cycle of the ;(D), (R), (D)... extension and this country will be the largest Chinese operated garage sale in history.”

“Flea Market Forces?”

“MarkO, do you really believe your rantings bring you credibility?

If all you're interested in is mental masturbation, your life is full.


You have yet to make a rational case for anything; then you try to project your own closed-mindedness onto me. Didn't pedxing teach you anything about self-examination?


Yup, Nazi and bigot as well. A simple search of the internet shows your statement to be absolutely correct. As does this:

“White liberals learned this trick from black liberals. Black civil rights figures love playing the Nazi card. When Newt Gingrich tried to reach out to liberal Democrats by inviting them to social functions, New York representative Major Owens was outraged. “These are people who are practicing genocide with a smile; they’re worse than Hitler,” Owens said.”

Liberal Fascism. Jonah Goldberg; NY 2008. (p 243)



You offer no service of public discourse that can enlighten us to anything except the fact that you can't take part in a lucid question and answer discussion....

Well, there's also the fact that you continually tell other people how they feel or react. Now if you could only understand whether you project feelings, experience bigotry, engage in anti-intellectualism, and/or continuously practice rationalization and denial, you'd have the makings of a healthy mind.


Is it that you feel your rational views are just too Top Secret to share? You don't really think of yourself as altruistic, do you? Isn't it greedy not to share? Isn't that selfish? Or are you just terrified that you really have nothing to offer to a rational discussion?

When all you can do is rant and post insulting pictures, public embarrassment should be the least of your worries.




What are your sources of information for Laconia? Are they the same ones that tell you a single payer system is "the most efficient"? Do voices speak to you from outer space? Or do you just figure it all out on your own?




I will probably pass through Maryland on 81. I can't stand driving around DC. DC is a perfect example of centralized government that's grown totally beyond its useful functions.”

“Marko...I am still waiting for a MAJOR Single Payer program (heck my office is a single payer program ..i.e. Employer Provided Insurance) but I mean a HUGE program not some company.”

“Don't bother XL, MarkO doesn't want to talk about it. Especially not with "a corporatist who thinks he can change my mind and in the event that my mind cannot be changed resorts to calumny."


Liberals are very broadminded: they are always willing to give careful consideration to both sides of the same side.

The great thing about MarkO's opinions is he don't have to back them up with facts.”

“My question is why do we still call them "liberals"?”

“we need to reclaim the term”

“We may be able to HPD. They've started to call themselves "progressives" now.

Ah yes, the American Progressive movement. It has a short but glorious history:


“We must demand that the individual shall be willing to lose sense of personal achievement, and shall be content to realize his activity only in connection to the activity of the many.”

Jane Addams (progressive social activist)


“Individualism means tyranny.”

Walter Rauschenbusch (progressive social activist)


"Only a very gross substance of concrete conception can make any impression on the minds of the masses. They must get their ideas very absolutely put, and are much readier to receive a half truth which they can promptly understand than a whole truth which has too many sides to be seen all at once. The competent leader of men cares little for the internal niceties of other people’s characters: he cares much-everything-for the external uses to which they may be put … He supplies the power: others supply only the materials upon which that power operates … It is the power which dictates, dominates; the materials yield. Men are as clay in the hands of the consummate leader."

Woodrow Wilson (“progressive” president)


"The New Nationalism rightly maintains that every man holds his property subject to the general right of the community to regulate its use to whatever degree the public welfare may require it."

Teddy Roosevelt (“progressive” president)


“(H.G.) Wells was probably the most influential literary figure among pre-World War II American progressives. Despite his calls for a new “liberal fascism” and an “enlightened Nazism,” Wells more than anyone else lent romance to the progressive vision of the future. He was also a keen eugenicist and particularly supportive of the extermination of unfit and darker races. He explained that if his “New Republic” was to be achieved, “swarms of black and brown, and dirty-white and yellow people” would “have to go.” “It is in the sterilization of failures,” he added, “and not in the selection of successes for breeding, that the possibility of an improvement of human stock lies.””

Liberal Fascism. Jonah Goldberg; NY 2008. (p 249)”

“Has anyone counted the times Rush has used the term liberal- is it higher than the national debt? LOL”

“That's what I'm tawk'n 'bout.....”

“So no one can give cogent reasons why they are against the platform I posted? Let's stick to posting stupid Photoshopped bullshyt then.”

“Against? Where do I sign?

The only thing I would say is that it mostly expresses grievance instead of suggesting action.

1. OK
2. I would merely ask, “Who determines what is pork?”
3. I’m mostly hard-core Libertarian here but I like the idea of a safety net for people disabled from birth or through government negligence. I need to examine this more.
4. OK, so what? I say term limits
5. This is a true statement. Flat Tax, Fair Tax (dang it, I still haven’t read that book), or something else. At this point I’d have to say Flat Tax because I don’t have enough information about Fair Tax.
6. OK, so what? Congress should abide by a Balanced Budget Amendment.
7. OK, so what? I say term limits
8. Good golly Miss Molly! I’ve been making that point since I got here. As much as I read, I certainly wouldn’t mind a class in civics. Don’t many schools already have those or have the leftists abolished them as too patriotic?
9. OK, so what? I say term limits




I miss MarkO already.

Anyone want to pony up for a pool betting how long before he’ll be back posting insulting pictures and one-liners while completely ignoring any rational questions or discussion.

Any takers?




In anticipation of his return I thought we could provide something he’s comfortable with. Just a sampling of the overwhelming blather that shows the leftists are still “on message.”


This is sweet:

If you can't compare all tea-baggers to nazis then you can't compare all the nazis to nazis either
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7714147&mesg_id=7714170


And this is insightful:

Why do 'Tea Baggers' and Republicans make such good l'il Nazis?
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/01/22/why-do-tea-baggers-and-republicans-make-


This comes from an impeccable source of intellectual enlightenment:

Janeane Garofalo calls teabaggers "racist rednecks"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms45EzMR0f8


And this certainly explains their position:

So we said the tea baggers were racists, now what?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4257753&mesg_id=4258284



Does anyone doubt that this nasty name-calling garbage is all over the internet? Just type in “Teabagger racists” or “Teabagger Nazis.”

Of course we’ll just have to take MarkO’s word that calling people who disagree with you nasty names isn’t bigotry. Nope, there’s nothing about those websites, and the “on message” leftist blather all over the internet that would imply they “obstinately or intolerantly are devoted to their own opinions and prejudices.”


"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

Abraham Lincoln”

“1. What sources of information can you point to that would lead us to the conclusion that a single payer system is the "most efficient"?







2. How would you explain that, as the government's percentage of healthcare delivered has risen, healthcare costs have skyrocketed?

At least part of that is due to the fact that the Republican enacted health care reform, Medicare Part D, forbade the government to negotiate with drug companies. It was typical Republican sponsored corporate welfare. The VA, which does negotiate on price, pays almost 60% less for prescription medications.



3. How would your single payer system be different from that in Europe where they can no longer afford their government healthcare?

Looks like a false premise to me - please provide support.




4. How would you dispute Hayek's argument that, as government grows, we lose freedom?

As Big Business grows, we lose freedom. Government is the only leverage we have against corporations.




5. Considering that medicare is in deep financial trouble, how would your single payer system get it right?

See number 2 above - keep Republicans out of government.”

“Thanks for showing up, vi. You’re about the only leftist here who actually contributes something useful.




1. I like the graphs. That’s a strong argument. Is there any evidence to suggest that we may be subsidizing healthcare costs in other countries because of their monopolistic pharmaceutical price fixing? Would those go away when their government run healthcare systems go bankrupt? Should we pursue a policy that encourages Europe to end price controls? Do you like the idea of price controls?


2. You know as well as I do that the cost of healthcare has risen continuously as government’s role has risen from about 10% in the sixties to over 50%.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4633

Blaming it on Bush and the Republicans is disingenuous even for you. But it’s true that Medicare Part D did add to the cost and was a bad idea. Bush didn’t get poor approval ratings just by pissing off the Dems. People are getting fed up with big government no matter who causes it.

During that same time, the pace of technology has increased. The cost of construction has increased. People are living longer so more resources are being devoted to caring for the elderly. We can point to many possibilities.

However, there is absolutely no empirical evidence for believing healthcare costs would have risen more slowly had government been less involved. But there is empirical evidence to show that healthcare costs have risen the more government has gotten involved.


3. A false premise, violin? Or is it contempt prior to investigation?

Van Rompuy says, Europe can no longer afford to pay generous pensions, health care and unemployment - the spending that, especially with aging populations, has built up heavier and heavier levels of government debt, made worse by paying out hundreds of billions of euros to bail out banks and stimulate recession-plagued economies.

http://www.miamiherald.com/business/nation/story/1484984.html


4. That’s a smarmy argument even for you. You know that we always have a choice in the market and you know that we have no choice with government monopoly. I have no choice but to give up more of my wealth as government grows and raises taxes to support itself. I have no choice but to pay my money to government in a single payer system. I have no choice but to subsidize your healthcare with a single payer government system.

Then there’s the fact that you obviously haven’t read The Road to Serfdom or Free to Choose. Are you going to make a serious argument here or are you going to pretend that you have an understanding of their arguments?

What did Hayek say about government growth as it relates to marginal needs? He makes one interesting point on page 100. Gee, you don't remember what that was? Why don't you pull that book down off the shelf. Surely it's up there with your other econ books. What about Milton Friedman? Why don't you go grab his classic, Capitalism and Freedom and we'll discuss it.


And you’re the one who suggested I read Stiglitz:

“I believe that globalization – the removal of barriers to free trade and the closer integration of national economies - can be a force for good and that it has the potential to enrich everyone in the world, particularly the poor.”

“I believe in privatization (selling off, say, government monopolies to private companies), but only if it helps companies become more efficient and lowers prices for consumers. This is more likely to happen if markets are competitive, which is one reason I support strong competition policies.”

Joseph E. Stiglitz- Globalization and its Discontents


5. You think that’s funny? It shows anti-intellectual tendencies and bigotry. You may want to think about whose philosophies you mimic.



As long as you've never read Hayek or Friedman, try not reading Rothbard. I'm sure it will have the same effect on the open-mindedness of your education.


Come on son! I thought you were a man to be respected. You're letting me down here.”

“[insert retarded photoshop picture here]”

“As Big Business grows, we lose freedom. Government is the only leverage we have against corporations.


Did Violin, proponent of growing government at every turn (except when Republicans are in charge) really type that?”

“It got brighter outside this morning not long after my alarm clock rang. I have a powerfully magical alarm clock.

There's no empirical evidence to dispute it, so it must be accepted as fact.”

“Violin, proponent of growing government at every turn.......

Making false statements about someone with the intention of harming their reputation is what is known as calumny.”

“Use it in a sentence ...


MarkO's statements are often recognized as a calumny.”

“MarkO has access to words that other people don't because he spends a lot of time in the library.


...with the intention of harming their reputation...

LMFAO! Violin?!?”

“Vile Big Business used to be a destructive force...um then Teddy Roosevelt kinda took it out so that is old news.

In actuality small business is the largest employer in the US. Any tax changes (read as HEALTH CARE) will cause them to cut their employment even more.”

“Violin’s just having a bit of fun with us. In reality he was affiliated with the Center for Market Processes where he studied under Richard Fink and Walter Block. He probably has tea and crumpets with his good buddy Joe Salerno.

Don’t take violin for granted. He’s a crafty bugger.




Now from my experience, I’d be in a wheelchair for life if I hadn’t been able to get an MRI within a few hours of seeing the doctor, which enabled me to be admitted into the hospital in less than a week, which enabled the doctors to operate on me within a day. Granted being in a wheelchair wouldn’t affect the life expectancy tables, but it would have made a difference in my quality of life.

Waiting six months for an MRI would have completely degraded my quality of life. But I’ll bet it’s an efficient way to keep down costs for some of those countries. Denial of care would be an efficient way to keep down costs. Lack of the latest technology would be an efficient way to keep down costs.

Meanwhile violin is over here making jokes about measuring apples to oranges and that’s his STRONG argument.



So, healthcare costs per capital and as a percentage of GDP show us all how efficient government run systems are?

So, by your graphs, violin, Finland has much more efficient healthcare system than say Greece. Or is that Mexico? Sorry, I can’t make out those colors very well.

Let’s look at the bar graph: So, Turkey has a more efficient system than Germany. And the Slovak Republic has a more efficient system than France. What do you think is wrong with the German and French systems? Besides the fact that they’re going bankrupt.

I’ll bet people from all over the world are flocking to the Slovak Republic for efficient healthcare.

Got any graphs for Kazakhstan? I’ll bet Kazakhstan must have some efficient healthcare, huh?


In order to make oranges look a bit more like apples, shall we move on to a discussion of quality?

I can’t wait for the charts and graphs about life expectancy which will surely explain everything we need to know about quality of healthcare.


You’ll have to do better than that, violin. I have a feeling that the issue is a bit more complex than you make it. Please excuse me if I take your one point less than seriously considering the seriousness of your other four points.




Got any charts and graphs showing how the government spending stimulus is effecting aggregate demand?”

“Did you make that false statement for entertainment purposes, Nincom?

If so then it would fall under the Rules Of Parody.

Please accept my apology.

...with the intention of harming their reputation...

LMFAO! Violin?!?”
Nonconformist

Wait a minute, I take that back!
You have made another false statement about the man's reputation thereby attempting to harm his reputation.

Its the Nerf Bat for you, senor'”

“I’m a bit worried about violin. He’s still trying to model our healthcare after the examples of huge tax burden, going bankrupt anyway, European models.

Has anyone called his wife to check how much medication he’s on?



And nowthere’s this:

Docs cut work hours as primary care shortage looms
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303513.html


Work-hour limits for residents, or doctors in training, were introduced in 2003 and brought down the average.

Government regulation, that’s the ticket!


Payment issues may have played more of a role. The overall decrease in hours coincided with a 25 percent decline in pay for doctors' services, adjusted for inflation. And when the researchers looked closely at U.S. cities with the lowest and highest doctor fees, they found doctors working shorter hours in the low-fee cities and longer hours in the high-fee cities.

So, under a system, like say England’s, where doctors make much less, they’re getting more efficient healthcare?


Greater competition and more managed care in the low-fee cities may provide a clue to why doctors are working fewer hours.

Competition AND price controls. That’s a sure recipe for efficiency


"There's so much oversight for what we do, so many people we have to answer to and so little of it improves care, it's just driving us all crazy," Perlmuter said.

As I’ve experienced and as I’ve heard a number of professionals state, “The increase in government regulations is making my job harder and costing the client more.”


And, of course, The NY Time gives the story their full attention:

Doctors Are Working Fewer Hours
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/us/24brfs-DOCTORSAREWO_BRF.html?partner=rss&emc=rss




And violin still wants to model our system after Europe’s?

Well he studied economics, he loves Keynes, and he probably read Paul Samuelson’s work, Economics (he probably even has it handy on his bookshelf). As a left-liberal Keynesian Nobel-prize economist, and author of the world’s all-time bestselling textbook, Samuelson characterized the Soviet Union as a largely noble and successful experiment all the way up to the book’s 1989 edition.


Like violin’s charts and graphs, that says it all.”

“Samuelson characterized the Soviet Union as a largely noble and successful experiment all the way up to the book’s 1989 edition.

LOL!”

“When doctors with nurses stand in front in the Hospital parking lot looking for a days work, then we'll have a healthy Health Care System, it worked for lowering home prices.”

“Samuelson characterized the Soviet Union as a largely noble and successful experiment all the way up to the book’s 1989 edition.

Boy, did he bet on the wrong horse!”

“You have made another false statement about the man's reputation thereby attempting to harm his reputation.

What were the false statements and, since you apparently know the truth, what is correct?”

“You made a joke about Violin's reputation implying that he was a disreputable person.
And.....and false statement....
“Violin, proponent of growing government at every turn.......

You know nothing about the guy outside of the rotten things you and your little playmates attribute to him.

Usually people with little or no self respect have none for others.”

“Why would you have no self respect? You seem happy enough plus you (apparently) have the ability to read the minds of other people.

Again, show me how any of that is false. Or are you the only one who gets to make statements without backing them up with facts?”

“I would LOVE to meet violin.

I'd get my daughter to bake a nice cream pie and... deliver it to him.”

“You are the one who shows disdain for others.

Just a little while ago you told me to "put up or shut up", why, I do not know.
I suppose it had something to do with something that you falsely attributed to me and wanted me to answer for.
You got your answer......
I replied that you can go ahead and "molest yourself". I should not have stooped to your level.

Again, show me how any of that is false.

You are the one making such declarations. It is on you to prove them.
If you can't prove it, why say it?
Perhaps a lack of refinement on your part.....”

“Why not just swim up behind him and cut his throat?

LOLOL”

“Facts, what are these things you keep bringing up, facts in the United States of Hollywood, Facts LMAO.”

“http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dems-in-2005-51-vote-nuclear-option-is-arrogant-power-grab-against-the-founders-intent/

Since this Tea PArty thread has devolved into health care....watch this video of the Dems denouncing the nuclear option, which they are threatening to use to shove Obamacare down our throats. Look for the Joe Biden quote, it's priceless”

“We can argue "facts" about any number of things but to besmirch others based on trumped up bullsh*t is beyond the pale.”

“Violin besmerched the he11 outta me the other day and called me an a$$hole...

I'm just saying

BESMERCHER!”

“Too much irony up there to repost! LMAO!


I love MarkO. He reminds me of the kid I knew in first grade (oddly enough, also named Mark) who was constantly in the mischief and always the first and loudest to proclaim what everyone else was doing wrong, lol.”

“You've earned that reputation, dOOd.

Ha ha ha!!”

“Very few of those countries have government run health care systems, arclite.

MarkO was talking about single payer - where the government creates a single insurance pool which is furnaced in a variety af ways, usually through a combinatoon of taxes and employer contributions. Having a single pool from which to negotiate lowers costs as can be seen by the per capita and % of GDP measures I posted.

Japan and France have excellent systems that cost far less than ours.”