Thirty years to-day

“3 September, 1939, at breakfast, Britons listened to Prime Minister Nevil Chamberlain on the wireless.

He informed the nation that the Anglo-French ultimatum to Germany to begin withdrawing their troops from Poland within 48 hours after their invasion of Saturday, 1 September had been ignored and that Britain and France were in 'a state of war' with Germany.

Later, that calender day, after a symbolic (pro forma) session of Parliament, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa also declared war.

A six year struggle in which more than 50 million people would perish had begun.

God help us all.”

“The aftermath of which is still felt today.”

“it doesn't quite add up....     < WINK >”

“Um 1936...Retaking of the Rhineland. Read about it. The Germans actually went in on Bicycles. If the French had put a token force in Germany would have been thrown in disarray. But Chamberlain and his friends wanted Peace at Any Price.”

“Let me make sure I heard you right, XL.

You are saying if the French had just shown a token resistence at that moment in time, WWII would not have happened.

Is that correct?”

“No, he did not say that. He said Germany would have been thrown in disarry.

The War still would have happened because Roosevelt was a p u s s e y and a democrat”

“Wasn't that one of the biggest gambles that hitler took? That the French wouldn't do jack squat about it?”

“That is the official wisdom. As always, I think, things were more complicated. There was a strong belief that the Armistice made another war inevitable because of the harsh - cruel - impossible conditions it imposed on Germany. So called appeasement was an attempt to redress legitimate grievances in the hope of avoiding another conflict.

Also, neither UK nor France were in an economic position to engage in a major war given the Depression.

Of course hindsight make this ridiculous, but we weren't there.

The literature of the time (Remarque, Graves, Sassoon, Céline, et al give an idea of the horror and PTSD of the last one. A good introduction, I think, to the thought of the time is the beginning of the movie, Chariots of Fire .

It begins with the British Olympic Team running on a beach in 1924. They then proceed to be biletted at Oxford for their training camp. They are met by two handicapped WWI veterans who carry their bags for a few pence.

One of them says to the other, 'We fought the war for sh*ts like them'.

Later they have their first dinner in the Great Hall of Gaivs College (pronounced 'keys') where the proctor points to the plaque on the wall of the students and former students who fell and gives a short sermon of 'filling their boots'.

All of Europe were aware that they had lost the generation whom they would need as leaders - a junior officer's life expectancy had been three weeks.

Of course the evil had again risen, but fault and 'ought to have' are far more complicated.”

“The German excuses for invading Poland were almost as thin as Dubya's "reasons" for invading Iraq.”

“I created what I thought was an adult thread. I forgot that in your culture 'adult' means pornography.

It's too bad that a serious subject just shat the bed, so to speak.”

“Remarque's writing is horribly good.”

“Thanks for the clarification, WK.

Hitler acually encountered a "token" defense when he took France. Didn't seem to slow him down much.”

“The same thing will happen when that religous school takes on Florida this weekend.”

“You mean Charleston Southern isn't a high school?”

“Its been a while since I read mucg history about the beginning of WW2 but the French and the English didn't really stand a chance. They were still (im)mobilized to fight the last war and were in hardened fortifications on the Maginot Line. Germany just ignored those and did an end run around them through the Ardennes. The speed of the blitzkrieg caught the Allied forces with their pants down. It was only Hitler's stupid halt order (stupid for Germany), hoping to negotiate a peace, that allowed the troops to escape through Dunkirk.

I add teh last part to show that both sides were doing things to avoid full scale war that look bad in retrospect.
last edited: 9/03/09 2:30:58 PM”

“I'm still trying to figure out the 30 years.Shouldn't be 70? Am I missing something?”

“Must be the Canadian exchange rate. ;-)”

“Either that or gremlin is stuck in the 60's”

“I am disappointed.
“I created what I thought was an adult thread. I forgot that in your culture 'adult' means pornography.

It's too bad that a serious subject just shat the bed, so to speak.”
Gremlin
3:08:03 PM
9/03/09

Well, you tried, Doug.”

“like you give a sh1t homo”

“Oh mjy God! Make it 70 years - in my own (hopeless) defence I am stuck in the 60's and I was never a math teacher.”

“From WIki...but footnoted.

On the 12th of February Hitler informed his War Minister, Field Marshal Werner von Blomberg, of his intentions and asked the head of the Army, General Werner von Fritsch, how long it would take to transport a few infantry battalions and an artillery battery into the Rhineland. Fritsch answered that it would take three days organization but he was in favour of negotiation as he believed that the German Army was in no state for armed combat with the French Army.[8] The Chief of the General Staff, General Ludwig Beck warned Hitler that the German Army would be unable to successfully defend Germany against a possible retaliatory French attack.[9] Hitler reassured Fritsch that he would ensure that the German forces would leave at once if the French intervened militarily to halt their advance. The operation was codenamed Winter Exercise. On February 22, 1936

In fact

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERrhineland.htm
(1) Adolf Hitler met Kurt von Schuschnigg, the Austrian Federal Chancellor on 12th February, 1938. Schuschnigg later recalled what Hitler said to him at the meeting about marching into the Rhineland in March, 1936.)

Don't believe that anyone in the world will hinder me in my decisions! Italy? I am quite clear with Mussolini; with Italy I am on the closest possible terms. England? England will not lift a finger for Austria. And France? Well, two years ago when we marched into the Rhineland with a handful of battalions - at that moment I risked a great deal. If France had marched then, we should have been forced to withdraw. But for France it is now too late! ”

“There were enough WWII vets in the 60's that the war was still being fought in most bars in MW Wisconsin.”

“Why oh Why hasn't Danny been snapped up by the Heritage Foundation and given a fellowship?”

“In a perhaps vane effort to redeem myself and my chronic dyscalculia it was seventy years ago to-day that my father joined up.

The day after the declaration of a 'state of war' my father and his father-in-law, my maternal grandfather, went to the recruiting station and signed up. My grandfather, a WWI vet was refused, but my father, a welder, 24 years old was accepted. On the same day his two older brothers joined up (the oldest brother was already a US citizen and living in Arizona, like his uncle, both because of asthma) and the youngest - far under-aged tried.

My father was called in on June 25, 1940 (no-one was ready, not even the US). He served in UK, then all of Europe having landed on D3, June 9. No-one moved on D2 in case the boys had to come back.

Norman, my dad's older brother served in North Africa in the infantry and fought in the invasion of Sicily and up the 'boot' of Italy. He fought at Monte Casino. After the war he divorced, lost the farm and joined up for the Korean War. He retired from the regular forces at full age.

I can remember still seeing my uncle off in Central Station, Montreal. He was sitting on a bench in uniform and I was fascinated by the muzzle of his SMLE (affectionately called the 'smellie') sticking out of his duffle. I was only three, but already a gun-nut.

By the end of the war when Jimmy was old enough to join he was working at what is still Canada's biggest munitions manufacturer and thus was a 'starred' man and ineligible.

I don't know if you guys know this, but even before the declaration, when everyone knew that war was inevitable - even Chamberlain realised that - the Crown Jewels were planned to be shipped to Canada to be stored in the vaults of the Sunlife Insurance Company, Canada's largest and then based in what was then Canada's financial centre, Montreal.

Now my uncle John was an executive at Sunlife and involved in the planning. The Crown Jewels are not just the ceremonial stuff they show tourists in the Tower, they are the whole of the hard currency, specie and bullion of the nation - think Fort Knox.

When John didn't show up at the office, the company put out a search. He was caught, cautioned never to do that again (he could never be captured, you see). Well, John got on the train and joined the RCN (Royal Canadian Navy) in Halifax and managed to almost sail befor they caught him. Halifax is in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) and a single John Murdoch would be hard to find among the thousands. Thet told him he would spend the rest of the war in gaol if he tried it again.

My dad married my mom on Saturday,December, 7, 1940. Sunday, December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbour, was on their first anniversay. My dad was already in UK as he had shipped out on Monday, December 9 to return in 1946. I was born in 1948.”

“Doug, that's a great story.

Probably one of the reasons I don't share the disgruntled feelings of a lot of Vietnam Vets is because of the royal treatment afforded me by WWII vets around the corner. Up here, in Wisconsin, there was no such thing as buying beer or a meal when home on leave. I often stayed in the homes of veterans and their families I barely knew for a week or so at a time, drinking their beer, eating their food while farting at their table and doing whatever I could with their daughters.

Those people were true patriots.”

“sentence one: please change corner to country.

MarkO in para 2, for purposes of you being able to empathize, change 'daughters' to 'sheep'.
last edited: 9/04/09 2:37:55 PM”

“Shear madness..........”

“Gremlin, fantastic accounts about your family during WWII. And yes I've read somewhere about the planned move of England's "Crown Jewels" to the Sunlife building.

The Sunlife Insurance company/business moved everything to Toronto during the "Quebec Indepedence/Separation" debacle. Their building is still here.

Now Toronto is the financial center of Canada....all thanks to those separatistes....some Torontians think they're the center of the universe. heh heh

Btw, during WWII...only my grandfather, his wife and his brother were in Montreal, Canada. His brother volunteered to be an auxiliary fire fighter....the ones that go around telling/warning homeowners to cover up their windows so no light can be seen outside at night-time. And to help fight fire if the Axis' bombed Montreal.”