Subzero Sleeping Bag

“so, I'm looking for a decent subzero sleeping bag. It doesn't need to be super heavy-duty (I doubt I'll actually be using it in subzero temperature, but sub-20 for sure), but it has to work. I made the mistake of bringing an REI sub-kilo bag into the sierras and it was laughably far from adequate, even when it was only hovering around freezing.

I don't want to spend a bloody fortune, but I'd like a bag that actually keeps you as warm as advertised...”

“I had the REI Kilo plus and it was 'ok', but not a zero bag.

I just did a search for a good zero rated bag - i wante down - and i wanted 800 or better down.

I wound up withe Marmot Lithium and I think i'll be real happy with it. It's rated to zero - if you want a little better you could put a liner in it for minimal added weight.

Western Mountaineering makes KILLER sacks, but you pay more, though I hear it's worth it.

For my needs/wants/budget the Lithium was the best deal around. I also bonused by finding it on a discount with free shipping from basegear.com.”

“Western Mountaineering Bags

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products”

“I've been very happy with my marmot helium.”

“I have a few WM bags. The bestest and warmest of mine with a very conservative rating is the Antelope Super DL, rated at five degrees. It has been out in minus seven and minus four or so, north of Truckee, CA in January a few times. Pricey though, have to put in some overtime to get one. What I like about them is the full zipper, others only have a half zipper or there abouts. Although when it gets that cold, half zipper is no big deal. I can't think of that other cheap company that makes fair quality bp gear, they make down bags too.”

“I hear the Wiggy's bags are very warm.”

“First time I experienced +10 F. temps, I was cold in my 0 degree Northface synthetic. But I was on only a 1/2" closed cell foam pad. Once I changed to a 1" CCF pad, the Northface was toasty down to 0 degrees. Adding a fleece liner kept me warm in -13 F. As I recall, the bag was about $160 and weighs 4 lbs 4 oz.”

“Box baffled vs sewn through is a big deal. I have seldom slept warm in a sewn through bag.”

“Sewn through is not on the market at these temps. Synthetic winter bags have two offset layers of insulation, while down bags are baffled.

I use a Slumberjack for winter camping. I have never closed the hood of my old M600 Expedition bag that is rated to -30 deg. F.

I make sure the rating is very generous. I don't use down because of condensation/wet weather worries.

I get my Slumberjacks from Campmor.

I've been using Slumberjacks since 1987 and Campmor's customer service is fantastic.”

“That's it, Slumberjack.”

“Unless you plan on doing some serious winter camping/mountaineering, I think you'll find that a sub-zero rated bag has limited applications in a three-season setting.

I have found that a good 15-degree bag is the best choice for three-season and even 4-season backpacking in the milder climes of the West. It's just that much more versatile. I have used a 15-degree bag on multiple winter trips, sometimes supplemented with long underwear and/or a silk bag liner. I have never been cold. This has been where temps were in the single digits. That, plus the retained warmth of a sealed shelter and a good ground pad (I use a thermarest AND a closed-cell foam pad when winter camping), kept me plenty comfy.”

“Well, I have a 20 degree bag (that's actually more of a 30-degree bag) that I can use for 3-season camping. But I took it up into the mountains in August and a freak cold spell dropped it down to 18 degrees one night, and the bag did nothing. So I'd like a warmer bag to bring on trips like that just in case...”

“Another option to consider that would allow you to integrate your existing bag and that may be cheaper is purchase an overbag.

Again, a good bag will keep you comfortable in the advertised range, so maybe you just need a good bag. My opinion tho is to save yourself the weight and skip the sub-zero.
last edited: 10/14/09 10:52:30 AM”

“good suggestion... I hadn't even considered that. I'm sure it'd be a lot cheaper too.

I think I'll look into the overbag idea. Seems easiest on all levels”

“Are you planning to use this bag at 20* or -20*? It makes a big diffrence. Your original post says -20* and sub-zero, but then you talk about more 3 season temps.

If you want a true -20* bag, I would get a Western Mountaineering Puma (36oz of 850+ fill down 3lbs 7oz Total weight)

other options would be:

Feathered Friends Peregrine (-25*)
Marmot Col EQ (-20*)
Mountain Hardwear Wraith SL -20
Integral Designs XPD-2 (-30*)
Mont-Bell UL SS Down Hugger EXP (-20*)
Valandre Odin (-38*F)

But it sounds like you may want a zero bag, in which case I would get a Western Mountaineering Antelope w/ overfill.

other choices would be:

Mountain Hardwear Phantom 0 (this is the 0* bag I have now)
Marmot Lithium (0*F)
Marmot Couloir (0*F)
Integral Designs XPD1 (0*F)
Mont-Bell UL Spiral Down Hugger #0
Mont-Bell UL SS Down Huuger #0
Feathered Friends Ibus (0*F)
Valandre Shocking Blue


I wouldn't trust a sub-par bag brand at those temps. If you are going to be seeing single digits or even sub zero temps, pay the money and get a good bag, your life may depend on it.
last edited: 10/14/09 11:12:20 AM”

“I've slept in a lot of snow and Slumberjack is just fine. You can go to the pics in the FYAO IV thread to get an idea.”

“sorry, I should've clarified... the bag I have now is a +20 degree bag (or so it says, it's really maybe a 30 degree). I'm a desert rat and not keen on the cold, so I'm hoping to never really be in a situation where I'm camping under 20 degrees... but I know that it sometimes happens, so I'd like something a little warmer and more reliable to bring when there's a chance that it might get real cold. My Sierras trip was supposed to be a low of 35 (which my bag, though subpar for the 20 degrees it states, would've handled fine) but one freak night it got down to 18 and I froze my junk to the ground, so to speak... I'd like to avoid a situation like that in the future...

I think Rosey's solution is probably the best for me... I'd rather not spend money on a whole new bag that I might bring on a trip once every five years and maybe never actually need. The overbag seems more than adequate for my situation.”

“theres a big difference between 20 below and just zero. Unless your really going into heavy duty mountaineering (i.e. not in the contiguous US), then a zero or even a 10 or 15 degree bag with a liner will be all you'd ever need. Since your out west, down is probably preferable, its lighter and packs smaller and some people think it's a better insulater over synthetics.

Your ground pad makes a big difference too - especially on snow. I use a Z rest closed cell pad under my skinny 3/4 thermarest air matt in the winter and it serves me real well.”

“Yup, the pad is important. I have a big-a$$ Thermarest and I sometimes put my blue foam sitpads ubderneath (I bring two smaller pads to sit on and rest my feet).”

“I've slept in a lot of snow and Slumberjack is just fine.

but how much does it weigh? You guys use pulk sleds.

Warm, Light, Cheap. Pick Two.”

“It sounds like you need something like a Western Mountaineering Versalite a 2lb 10* rated down bag.

Roam Around and Gremlin are right about the pad too. What are you using now?

I like the Exped Downmat 7 for cold temps, but also use a Prolite 4 over a Gossamer Gear Nitelight from time to time. Adding a CC foam pad (GG Nitelite, Ridgerest, Zlite, Blue Foam, etc) is a good cheap way to add warmth to an existing pad. You will lose some comfort, but gain warmth if you put the foam pad on top if you are using it with an inflatable.”

“I've got a basic, thin thermarest... it was also never an issue until this Sierra trip...”

“I've got a buddy who uses an Exped downmat - man those things are cushy! I'd love to have one.”

“I am not saying that your Thermarest was inadequate, just that it could be one reason why you were cold. Most people focus on the sleeping bag and forget about their sleeping pad, it has to be up to the task too!”

“yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the issue too - hadn't really taken that into consideration at all”

“At 20 degrees I'm fine in my 15 degree bag (Marmot Pinnacle) and my ultralight thermarest. Colder and I add a closed cell pad.

WM bags are excellent. I had a Puma (-15 rating) out when it was -13 inside the tent and it performed well. They are expensive though. There are plenty of less expensive bags that will keep you warm at above zero temps.

Gremlin said he doesn't like down for cold weather but I've yet to see much liquid water at those temps. Condensation is an issue if you're out for more than a few nights - something I don't do in that weather.

I was joking about the Wiggy's. No one took the bait.”

“You don't really want a bag that is rated much lower than the coldest temps you'll experience. If you get hot, you'll sweat that thing up and be uncomfortable.”

“I tried a liner inside my +20 bag on my last trip. I don`t know exactly how cold it was overnight, but I`d say it was in the mid-25s and below. I was actually too warm in it (which is a good thing). Thanks for the advice all - it worked”

“let me clarify, it was in the mid 25s, not the mid -25s. My +20 sleeping bag is chilly at 30 and above, si it isn`t really +20”

“what type of liner did you use?”

“I can`t think of the brand from here... it was a cheapo fleece liner I got at Sports Chalet for about $20. Worked like a dream”

“did the fleece liner kind a cling on you? I use a silk liner and have looked at the fleece ones and always wondered if they are easy to use.”

“Silk liner@ 3oz.is the most efficient insulation for quilt users, below freezing. Quilt, liner and down hood hat = 28 oz., good to 15*F, w/10 oz. bivy lower.”

“it kinda clinged... when I rolled over, it would get all twisted and constricting till I sorted it out...”

“yeah a fleece liner would work well.

i tried a vbl once... what a terrible experience. it was like sleeping in a clam!”

“Bearded?”

“Ewwwwwww”

“My silk liner always gets wadded up. :(”

“stomper can you elaborate?”

“Western Mountaineering has one that I like to use.”

“I have used my fleece liner for years and i also find that it does not twist with me very well if i roll over.
I would think the silk linner would.

Precision, which liner did you get? I need a new one for a few winter trips I have planned.

DORK here.”

“Geez, another post lost.

Coolmax liner does not twist or wad up, adds about 10° and packs up tiny. Those fleece liners are nice and toasty but they are HUGE.”

“I am still looking for a goretex outer shell.”

“Chili, try the Integral Designs bivy. I have the Unishelter EXP and it is out of this world, integraldesigns.com.

I forgot to mention that a VBL is necessary for sub zero cold over more than one night. It must be really cold, though.”

“Chili are you looking for a bivy to be used in conjunction with a tarp or are you looking for a stand alone bivy?

For a stand alone bivy, the Unishelter that Gremlin mentioned is one of the top choices, but for use in addition with a tarp or other shelter, check out the bivies from Titanium Goat and Mountain Laurel Designs.”