Locator Beacon = Yuppie 911?

“Where's Fridge at? This type of stuff is like entering the Tour de France with training wheels and a 125cc engine on your bike.”

“spot is better. it's gonna be okay nigal.”

“I knew it was happening but not at this level. GGRRrrr...”

“Looks like a great way to get water delivered. Where can I get one?”

“Spot would never be able to send a signal out of the Grand Canyon. The Primal Quest disaster was evidence of that.

I carry an ACR PLB in case I run out of coffee.”

“LOL - fits perfectly with my perception of most trail hikers.”

“Easy solution, tack an extra fee on every backpacker/dayhiker/car camper who goes into a park. Say $25 a day for the duration of their stay right?

I mean why should people who have won life's lottery and can go spend days and weeks hiking get a break?”

“All fees for the "rescue" should be billed to the "clients."

The story of the father/son not liking the water quality is RIDICULOUS.”

“It's an easy fix. Just give them the bill for SAR.”

“WHOA..Chili, but what if they don't HAVE the money..what if they cannot afford that price?

I mean COME on, Just because they were unprepared (i.e. never actually learned the truth from veterans of life) does not mean they should be responsible like that.

Don't the idiots on the trail have the same right as any other "red Blooded American" to use the Police Power of the state to pay for their poor preparation?”

“They maybe considered yuppie 911 but here is an account of a gentlemen's life being saved by SPOT.


http://www.arkansascanoeclub.com/mb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14216”

“hillbilly no doubt, and personally I would take a locater if I was going somewhere more than a day or two.”

““WHOA..Chili, but what if they don't HAVE the money..what if they cannot afford that price?

I mean COME on, Just because they were unprepared (i.e. never actually learned the truth from veterans of life) does not mean they should be responsible like that.

Don't the idiots on the trail have the same right as any other "red Blooded American" to use the Police Power of the state to pay for their poor preparation?”
theXL400
7:38:53 AM
10/26/09

I was striclty referring to the "false alarms". However, failure to prepare properly should result in a penalty. I see a huge difference in an accident or mishap than I do from a failure to prepare.

But in the context of this thread, three emergency calls because you don't like the way your water tastes (on a hike in the middle of summer in the desert), is much more than a mishap OR a failure to prepare. It is more like false 911 calls.
last edited: 10/26/09 8:18:34 AM”

“Looks like a great way to get water delivered

LOL”

“Hillbillyhkr - I don't think rescue beacons are only a yuppie 911, but there are certainly some people who seem to treat it like that - or even like the room service button.

I hope folks who misuse it get charged for it. It would be great to have some kind of insuance they could buy in advance. It wouldn't hurt to have a fee tacked on to the devices that would go to local rescue operations”

“Interesting side story. A friend I've hiked with a few times was rescued. She and a friend went out Saturday on a route which often involves some difficult stream crossings, despite a couple days with tons of rain. She came to a stream that wasn't worth the risk crossing and despite bushwhacking around to find a better crossing decided to stay out for the night rather than risk crossing high and rapid waters.

She was out of cell range, so there was a extensive search on by the next morning. She was never in danger - but no one could no. So, question is how responsible is she for the rescue? After all, in hindsight at least we could say it was riskty to take a route with tough stream crossing in these circumstances. On the other hand she'd done the same route a year ago with similar weathe forecasts.”

“perhaps the person who called in the emergency is responsible”

“This is always a real tough call. We depend on SAR to come get you no matter the circumstances. Who should have to pay is always a subject of contention.

The SAR/Sherrif/Fire people will always say they don't want people to NOT call for rescue from fear of having to pay for it. And in general, the stated policy in Colorado is that a SAR rescue is FREE. (allthough there have beena few cases where a local responder did try to charge)

I think a rescue should be free. However, if you really are NOT in imminent danger and called for a rescue anyway, (as is alluded in in the bad water taste anecdote), then that's a false alarm and you should be held responsible for the cost of your action.

In the case of being long overdue and a friend or relative calling for a rescue - this should be free as well. The one who called it in, acted responsibly and doesn't know if your in danger or not - but if your overdue by more than a couple of hours - (or a day - it's all relative to your trip). Then calling for a rescue is the right answer.”

“In a sense, they are since they called the rescue - they made a choice when they called. I'm not sure who that was.

I think whoever did was acting in good faith - two people on a 18 mile day hike in the wilderness in bad weather aren't back the following morning and their car is still in the trail head parking lot.”

“Really, this is another of those things that sounded like a good idea from the start until stupidy causes it to be legislated to death.


Not entirely sure how I feel about the whole "free" thing. Why shouldn't someone have to pay for their own rescue no matter what the circumstances? If you have an accident at home, who's responsible for the ambulance cost? If you crash your car, who pays for the wrecker?”

“I think Colorado has a $3.00 fee attached to hunting and fishing licenses that is supposed to go to SAR.

Spot has a SAR insurance policy available with the service. The Geos SAR member Benefit. It supposedly covers upto $50K/ incident of SAR for $7.95/yr. http://www.geosalliance.com/sar/index.html

This is their disclaimer on the web site:

"PLEASE NOTE This benefit does not apply if:-
a) your situation is caused by circumstances such as a forecast change of weather conditions, which could reasonably have been anticipated at the date you started your trip
b) you have NOT made adequate provision of resources or training or competence needed to complete your planned trip. "”

“There is a fee you can opt to pay with hunting and fishing licenses - it may actually be built in. You can voluntarily pay it as well.

CO does wilderness and backcounty rescue free as a matter of public policy. Most, if not all, SAR groups are composed of volunteers.

It's almost like a tourism issue given that so much of the state is public land and used for recreation by a very wide variety of groups.

There have been cases though, where local law enforcement participated in a rescue (as opposed to a SAR team, which are typically all volunteer) and the local law enforcement groups issued bills, totalling in the 10s of thousands of dollars. Sparked MAJOR controversy. This generally is coming from ONE jurisdiction along the front range, but there may be other cases that I'm not aware of.

Most county sherrifs state that any rescue undertaken will not be charged to the victim.”

“IRONY

However, failure to prepare properly should result in a penalty. I see a huge difference in an accident or mishap than I do from a failure to prepare.
Chili”

“Where is the irony in that?”

“SAR units will not be able to committ the resources needed to answer frivolous rescue calls on an ongoing basis without some sort of remuneration. Perhaps a minimum rescue charge should be posted at the park entrance, this may keep some people from pushing the button if their socks are wet and the water tastes funny.

Will these frivolous calls lead to "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome? If SAR units are continually called out to deliver water and band aids, volunteers may not be so quick to gather to respond to the next call.”

“well, I would think that the best solution would be to charge people for making frivolous calls, but not for anything in which SAR is actually needed. Of course, then there's the blurred line between what's frivolous and what isn't.

Say you're highly diabetic and run out of insulin. A SAR call would be a matter of life and death, but getting yourself into a situation that required SAR would be frivolous.”

“Wow. I must say, Royal Arch Loop in the summer. I did a part of this two years ago and it was tough in the Spring. I wonder how they planned to do the rap the loop requires? I can tell you running dry in summer and not finding water in that part of the Canyon is for sure life threatening. I have lots of canyon miles under my belt and not only would I not take that trip on in the summer because it would be dangerous, but it also would be miserable. Amazing!

By the way, we hiked down S Bass to the Tonto and then over to Ruby Canyon where we then hiked to Elves Chasm and back. Then we returned to S Bass and hiked the Tonto all the way back to the Boucher Trail where we hiked out. What a week! Oh, and three of us had SPOT devices and we got tons of messages out to our families (checking in OK). We also rented an Iridium sat phone. We knew what we were getting into and I am sure we would have self rescued if possible. Still, having good communications could be the difference between life and death. The time it would take to hike down to the river, flag down a rafter, and hope they have a sat phone could be way longer than an injured person has to live. So while I sure do understand the problems these devices cause, as a frequent trip organizer I simply won't go without one. I just try to remember that with this powerful capability comes a lot of responsibility.”

“Balls over beacons.

Hone your skills, be a man and accept the challenge of hiking without a Radio Shack on your back.”

“LMAO at nigal.....those who first cut through our great wilderness would say the same at you nigal carrying your synthetic junk. SPED”

“Oh don't worry Fridge. Use whatever excuse ya have to for justifying the use of all the safety nets you seem to depend on. GPS...beacons...sat phones...cell phones...vagina wipes...whatever it is you need is cool with me.

Hike your own hike,right? :)”

“these devices don't make a trip any safer. they only have the potential to reduce the price you pay in certain circumstances. said another way, accidents happen. it's how you respond to them that can make the difference between a full and normal life and something else.”

“..vagina wipes...whatever it is you need is cool with me

As a professional bottom-wiper you have first hand knowledge.

>8^b”

“I usually carry my SPOT because there's always the possiblity that you could take a fall and seriously injure yourself and not be able to hike out.

Many things you can prevent or minimize with knowledge and experience, but as Yogi said, accidents happen!”

“Yogi I agree planning, Preparation and Training are by far the best insurance package.

But in a way this branches over into the "World".

I guess I personally do not agree with properly prepared hikers who NEVER use emergency response (unless its a true unforseen event) having to pay for the unprepared Dolts who figure they will chance it and someone will bail them out.

Sadly I have had to hike with the REPEAT DOLTS...We had a guy who ALWAYS forgot Rain Gear, or sleeping gear (more often than not he brought some light 50F degree bag when it was going to hit 20F.) And after the third time I let him stay up by the fire all night rather than try to help.”

“I try to be selective about who I hike with.”

“agreed Rosey, but when my boss (who signs my $$$$$$ paycheck) tells me to go as the "medic/guide" um I tend to be less choosey.”

“I always pegged you for a brown-noser.”

“That's correct nigal...hike your own hike. Meanwhile I am looking into buying an upgraded locator beacon and possibly another sat phone and for Christmas....a new colorado GPS.....New light weight and smaller solar panels with usb. Did I tell ya I have a mountainhardware 3 man tent that has built in lights in the loft? Chin Music and Spam has seen the light.....hehehe”

“personally, I think that a lot of the technology can lead to someone being too dependent on it and therefore less safe. I went on a trip in Utah that a friend planned out ("Entirely" he said, "Just show up with a pack and I'll do the rest"). He had one of those GPS things - only problem is, in the canyon we were in, the GPS was as useless as a set of snowshoes. He brought a Topo, but didn't think he'd need it so he didn't bother looking at it too closely (turns out the 25 mile canyon we were in was about a half-inch long on the map, meaning the map was basically useless). In this case, there was no bad ending (we missed a couple side canyons we wanted to explore and overall were never 100% sure where the fnck we were), but what if we were relying on the Garmin to find water?

Besides, there's something to be said for going out into the wilderness and knowing that you're responsible for your own survival.”

“I hear ya peps - and frig too!

the technology is nice to have - but - and any GPS manufacurer will tell you this too - it's NOT a substitute for good ole basic skills.

My map and compass never need batteries and don't care if the satellite can talk to them or not.

Plus i get sort of a kick out of navigating to a point ahead of the guy that's holding the gps unit waiting for it to acquire a satellite.”

“not that they aren't cool. After another trip with him, he showed me the altitude profile of the entire hike, our average speed moving, total distance of the hike, etc... kinda nifty! But I wouldn't want to even be in a situation to rely on it”

“this is true and since I was and still a pro at reading and teaching map and compass skills I use a gps to mix it up...kinda like trying to prove the map wrong but never do.....You can never beat maps and compass unless you have no skill to know them.
most everyone I have backpacked with do not know how to use a map but they can read the ones that has a trail on it and there boots...shoes are walking on. Bushwack and get off the beaten path and those who think they can read those trail maps will find there true place with wilderness skills. I do it all and lately most of my trips involve NO TRAILS. Nigal sign up on one of my bushwack trips and do it.
Oh yes...my gps is 4 years old and has never lost a signal anywhere and I have it in 27 states now on every trip and I do at least 1 a month.....no problem ever. I also have maps that have never failed in 30 years too.”

“I'll tell ya, with 1:24,000 maps, you don't need no stinkin GPS...”

“Fridge, what type of GPS do you have, and have you tried it in any sort of narrow canyons?”

“oh yea.....next time any of you are at my home remind me to show you my MAP room.....more than 1200 maps most are topo's as I started collecting from 1976 to date, and dowloaded every historical map on topozone from 1902 through 1957.
I love maps but sleep with my wife.

oh my gps is nearby too.”

““I'll tell ya, with 1:24,000 maps, you don't need no stinkin GPS...”
roseymonster
2:20:54 PM
10/27/09

The maps don't break down and the batteries don't go dead.”

“but some crazy d-bag can throw your map in the river, leading to you getting eaten by the blair witch. If only they had a gps, those poor poor kids.”

“Pepsi...I use a Garmin60csx and used it in the GrandCanyons 4 years ago. Use it at Linville Gorge with no problems too.

In Alaska there are no 1/24K maps available.
But there are some 1/63K”

“Maps only work if you know how. Need a sure fire lesson.....sign up on one of my bushwack trips.....no trails and no signs.”