Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves )

“Sure, you can run your alcohol stove on methanol. That's what comes in a yellow bottle of HEET. I mean it's cheap and available and all -- but it doesn't have as much heat content as ethanol. In other words, you have to carry more methanol just to do the same amount of cooking.


OK, so I can get more heat from ethanol than methanol, great, but alcohols with high ethanol content tend to be more expensive. Just how much weight can I save? In other words, Is Ethanol Worth It?

Join me on today's Adventure in Stoving as we "do the numbers" on ethanol.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

”

“I thought Demand Media had a rule about advertising on here.... If you wanna talk stoves with us just do it. I don't care for commercials... No offense”

“Commercials? I'm not selling either type of fuel mentioned, in fact I'm not selling anything.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“The main reason I use an alcohol stove is because it is light, simple, cheap, and it is easy to find fuel for it. I have used denatured alcohol and heet and they both worked fine. On long hikes you can find fuel almost anywhere; gas stations, hardware stores, grocery stores, outfitters, etc. I don't know the pros or cons on ethanol versus methanol, but I like the stoves because of the fuel convenience.”

“I know Jim but it's still an advertisement for your stove blog and I'm sorry but it feels a bit .... Weird and creepy

But hey, that's just my opinion. Nobody listens to me anyways....”

“So strat, Jim is "weird and creepy" but Marinia is legit?”

“Haha, I doubt it but , benefit of the doubt.

I don't think Jims creepy at all. I just think he should come here and talk stoves instead of inviting us to go there and talk stoves, that's all. I like Jim, he seems like a nice guy.

You, Camper, are an entirely different story.....”

“....maybe if Jim was 19 and desperate, oh...and had boobs, he would get the benefit of the doubt.. lol.

I've talked stoves with Jim, he seems willing to do that here.”

“Marinia?...what did I miss? does she need a Sugar Daddy?...(Not volunteering, jus askin is all...)

Photos?

Stats...?

Oh, and just to be part of the original intent....if you have to save .001 percent of an ounce in weight in your fuel supply, maybe your interests should be other than backpacking...I'm all for cutting weight from sixty five to 20/30 pounds, but when you start wanting to cut GRAMS....

Have you have lost focus on the purpose of backpacking - getting outside?.....(spend some of that engineering energy actually hiking...)

I know Jim Hikes...but sheesh....

NOTE: And for the record, anyone who knows me knows my pack weight is nearer 75 pounds than it is 25....”

“Ethanol: 12,800 BTU/lb.
Methanol: 9,800 BTU/lb.

Ethanol: 6.59 lbs/gallon
Methanol: 6.63 lbs/gallon

So methanol is heavier by a negligible amount, and you'll have to carry 1.3 times as much to get the same heat output. Given a typical weekend load of 12 ounces of fuel, you'll have to carry 15 ounces of methanol. Not a big deal.

I buy mine by the gallon at the big home improvement stores, which is 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. This denatured alcohol is far cheaper than buying the yellow bottles of heet for planned short trips. If you are on a thru-hike you could bounce denatured alcohol ahead but the weight might make it cheaper to just buy the methanol (yellow Heet) where you can get it, which then makes the debate a non-issue.”

“I'll add that shipping denatured alcohol "post-consumer" may be illegal unless you declare it which gets lots of paperwork and additional fees involved, and isn't possible via USPS anyway. So that furthers the argument that you just gotta buy methanol on the long trips no matter what.”

“Actually, I am pretty creepy. I talk about weird things like hiking and backpacking when I should be talking about "normal" things like Lady Gaga and what's on TV. Next thing you know, I'll be advocating sleeping on the ground when there are perfectly good beds in this world. Sheesh, what's wrong with me anyway?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“if you have to save .001 percent of an ounce in weight in your fuel supply, maybe your interests should be other than backpacking...I'm all for cutting weight from sixty five to 20/30 pounds, but when you start wanting to cut GRAMS....

Have you have lost focus on the purpose of backpacking - getting outside?.....(spend some of that engineering energy actually hiking...)

I know Jim Hikes...but sheesh....


Exactly the point of my post. Everybody says "ethanol is better for alcohol stoves." Well, that's just great, but I wanted to know just how much better.

So, now you've got the numbers and you can make an informed choice.

Two other things not covered in my blog post are toxicity and flame visibility. With high ethanol content fuel, I find that it's easier to see the flame which may provide some measure of safety. Also with high ethanol content fuel, the toxicity is reduced both in terms of skin absorption and the fumes of combustion.

Just something else to through into the mix.

OK, sorry for talking stoves. I'll get back to being creepy now. ;)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“maybe if Jim was 19 and desperate, oh...and had boobs, he would get the benefit of the doubt.

Hey, every topic I post has some pretty "hot" action in it. Don't I get any credit? ;)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“I'm starting to get a headache, eh?”

“You are right about toxicity, methanol is extremely toxic, causing blindness and death. So labelling your fuel container is a must (which is why I mentioned it in past posts you've made) - just 1/3 of an ounce can make you go blind. If you downed 6 ounces of denatured alcohol with 5% methanol that gives you enough to go blind, although one antidote given for methanol ingestion is ethanol so you might get lucky and only encounter temporary blindness and one hell of a hangover in the morning.

I wouldn't worry about absorption through the skin, the little bit that might splash across your hand while you are filling up will mostly evaporate. You certainly aren't going to absorb 1/3 of an ounce unless you are bathing in the stuff.

The fumes are also a non-issue. The whiff or two you'll be exposed to while cooking will most contain the usual - water, CO CO2. Most of the methanol will be burned and the little bit left as vapor will dissipate before you can inhale it. Like skin absorption you would have to be doing something really wrong to get sick and if you were the CO and CO2 will be a far bigger problem first.”

“A real backpacker only uses gas when he wants to start his campfire quickly. He cooks over the campfire.”

““The main reason I use an alcohol stove is because it is light, simple, cheap, and it is easy to find fuel for it. I have used denatured alcohol and heet and they both worked fine. On long hikes you can find fuel almost anywhere; gas stations, hardware stores, grocery stores, outfitters, etc. I don't know the pros or cons on ethanol versus methanol, but I like the stoves because of the fuel convenience.”

Those are really good points, particularly if you're a long distance/through hiker or if you are using air transportation to get to your trailhead. I can't think of any fuel more universally available in the US than alcohol. Overseas may be a different matter, but alcohol is super available here in the US.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

““You are right about toxicity, methanol is extremely toxic, causing blindness and death. So labelling your fuel container is a must (which is why I mentioned it in past posts you've made) - just 1/3 of an ounce can make you go blind. If you downed 6 ounces of denatured alcohol with 5% methanol that gives you enough to go blind, although one antidote given for methanol ingestion is ethanol so you might get lucky and only encounter temporary blindness and one hell of a hangover in the morning.

I wouldn't worry about absorption through the skin, the little bit that might splash across your hand while you are filling up will mostly evaporate. You certainly aren't going to absorb 1/3 of an ounce unless you are bathing in the stuff.

The fumes are also a non-issue. The whiff or two you'll be exposed to while cooking will most contain the usual - water, CO CO2. Most of the methanol will be burned and the little bit left as vapor will dissipate before you can inhale it. Like skin absorption you would have to be doing something really wrong to get sick and if you were the CO and CO2 will be a far bigger problem first.”

Ah, thank you for bringing things into perspective. Good points.

My worry with skin absorption is not a single trip but rather over time. I find that using a flip top squeeze bottle keeps 99% of the alcohol off my skin, so I think I'm good there. I'm probably just being paranoid.

With respect to fumes, I almost worry about the burning of denaturing agents than I do about methanol which actually burns pretty cleanly.

I think the main thing with methanol is: Do be careful, but don't be intimidated. We're not talking about cyanide or plutonium here.

Good point though about labeling your container well, particularly if you use a drink bottle. I try to avoid drink bottles for carrying alcohol for just that reason.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“Use the Brown peroxide bottles for your fuel, cheap, STRONG, and they don't look like drink bottles...

or you could splurge and buy the nalgens fuel bottle with the built in por spout...

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=991&bih=675&q=nalgene+fuel+bottle&gbv=2&oq=nalgene+fuel+bottle&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1529l6630l0l7067l19l19l0l11l11l0l218l1247l1.6.1l8l0”

“Own 2 gas burners. Haven't used them in years since Chili made me hip to Pepsi stoves.”

“"Weird and creepy" is OK, but I have "blog pimp" removed by pedx?

pedx has already given this guy approval to advertise his blog here, d00d.

Trubrit was "removed" for "advertising" his camp. I guess different rules for different folks is the "rule."”

“SuperTroll,

I think that Nalgene discontinued those bottles some time ago. They are nice though.

I generally prefer the flip top spout type squeeze bottles for alcohol although a squat 8oz bottle water bottle fits really well in the Ziploc container I use for a bowl.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“I think they should let him back on, but Trubrit did more than advertise his camp. He made crazy, unfounded accusations against people here.”

“Techntrek, that was good info. Thanks.”

“I just run whatever denatured alcohol is around in gallon size. It's also sometimes called marine stove fuel at some hardware stores that sell in bulk. When I was in South America, I noted some of the times the alcohol denaturalisado I'd pick up in the market would burn pretty green vs. blue. I've never burned HEET, so I am guessing maybe it's because it had more methanol in it?”

“I forgot the denatured alcohol when we went to Mammoth Cave and bought some HEET at the auto parts store (good thing about alcohol stoves is you can find HEET anywhere). The HEET didn't boil water anywhere near as fast as denatured alcohol did.”

“The Heet in the yellow bottle I've found to be comparable to denatured, you never want to use the Heet in the red bottle. Different stuff, burns sooty.”

“Heet in the red bottle is isopropyl alcohol - rubbing alcohol. Not a good fuel, like you've found.”

“Roseymonster,

The green in your flames must have been from some other trace element or compound in your fuel. Methanol (yellow HEET) burns blue.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”

“I used the yellow bottle but it didnt burn nearly as hot.”

“Hmm, interesting. Thanks, Jim. Yeah, it was really only one or two batches that I picked up that burned green. Kinda weird tho.”

“Copper burns green, probably trace elements from distillation. Be glad your not drinking it..”

“if you want to see the flame (sometimes hard to do in daylight) it helps to add a bit of salt to the fuel - whatever water is in the fuel will dissolve some salt and when burned shows a yellow flame (sodium)”

“I was wondering if that would work. I believe Trangia impregnates their wick material with sodium (hence the orangish flame). I hadn't ever been bold enough to dump salt in my stove, but I guess I'll have to give it a try.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving”