John Ashcroft

“geez, mutt! down boy! LOL!!!!

i, too, was wondering if 'mutt' was just an alias for a fellow TTer and you reserved that name for social / political discussions.

you never talk about hiking and you have never told us anything about yourself. hell, we don't even know what area you live in.

how about a wee bit of bio, man!”

“His timing and type of posts make it obvious, Why would anyone who only liked to debate politics and religion lurk here? I know we talk these subjects frequently but to spend time here lurking then post immediately at the mere mention of church (it took him 21 minutes on the slow sunday thread). That seems odd, or it just means mutt isnt a troll. He could be a VERY VERY patient man who waits(and waits and waits and waits)like some cunning predator for the "prey" of religion and politics to cross his path. I doubt this though. Plus you have admitted to this before.”

“Ok, hyper, you didn't take my bait and engage in debate. You could have just said you're not interested and left it at that, but instead you tried to take a pot shot at my arguments by personally attacking my credibility (yes, that is an ad hominem attack) and engaging in name calling. Either you want to debate or you don't. Quit being wishy-washy.

radagast: I'm male, 30, a research analyst, a part-time arborist, and much of my outdoor recreation time is devoted to climbing/camping, canoeing, and bicycling. I occasionally check this BBs to get some hiking tips, as I have to hike to my favorite groves. Also, my job is either feast or famine. When it's famine, I come here (and to other forums) to engage any conservatives or christians in debate. I actually have contributed to backpacking threads where they have intersected my hobbies. Hammock tents for example. Notice, though, I don't go and "troll" the gear threads.

So far, only the uninteresting people have responded to me. It's not a compliment, hyper, but I thought you were a notch above the buttheads I've been telling off. Hiding behind the labeling tactic to avoid direct debate with me, however, is as cowardly as the trolling you're accusing me of. I'm just a little impatient with that kind of buffoonery.”

“I think that mebbe Mr. Ashrat has a stinky butt.

Know what?
Y'all ALL have a stinky butts!
Wanna talk about walkin in the woods and sleepin in the woods?
You do? Good! You are at the good place to do that.
Wanna talk about goverment? You do? Good!
Go to
GovermentTalkinPlaceOnTheInnernet.com”

“I can?t believe that I?m gonna blow my one weekly post on a troll thread but hey, it?s my weekly rant and I?ll spend it any way I like! 8O) Let me break ya off some?em real proper like?

I remember the first time I got stung by a bee. Man, I thought I was gonna die! I went running and screaming with my arms waving in the air. Lol! But once I realized that a bee sting wouldn?t kill me I wasn?t afraid any more. The same goes for Mutt. He used to piss me off to no end until we e mailed each other a few times and I learned that he doesn?t really care about the issues or hearing what TTers have to say. He basically said he was in it for the game and to get the reactions. I truly don?t think he is a regular either as, like he said, he does kick in on some other threads. His favorite topics are religion and politics for a reason?they are the easiest ones to get folks going.

The most ironic thing I find is that he becomes exactly what he purports to hate about Christians. He is offended by the fact that Christians claim Jesus is the only way. He doesn?t believe this and shows his hypocrisy by stating that Christianity CAN?T be the way. This is the point where Mutt would claim that ?I am assuming too much ? [makes me even more certain that christianity cannot possibly be the true path to God.] I speak from personal experiences. I used to play the same game. It is human nature to try and shout down the things that threaten our own beliefs, correct? That is why there are so many Christians running around with their heads cut off trying to force the world to conform to Christian standards.

?You?re atheist? Your WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!? ?You?re gay? You?re WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!? ?You drink alcohol? Your WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!?

And so on and so forth right on down the line. What the average condemning Christian doesn?t realize is that the Christian standard was set down for who??anyone, anyone at all? CHRISTIANS!! See, I used to do the exact same thing so I know how the game goes. I have long ago stopped arguing about the existence of God because it?s not my job to prove He exists, it?s His. It?s simply MY job to show and tell the world why I believe in and put my faith in Christ no matter what the consequences. My belief is strong enough that no amount of unbelief on anyone?s part can effect the reality of my relationship with my Creator?especially when I know that person is just trying to get my goat. 8)

God bless ya Mutt wherever ya are!


Nige”

“OK let us get this state and religion thing right. The constitution forbids the congress from passing any law that establishes a religion. It doesn?t say that religious people can not participate in the government. It does not say that religion principles can not be part of our laws (and they are). The term ?separation of church and state? is NOT in the constitution. Churches are permitted (aside from tax questions) to act politically. The constitution is to keep the state out of the churches business (not setting one church over another) it is not to keep a church out of the business of government. We believe in freedom of religion not freedom from religion.

Now about the religion that no one wants to name. The non-religion religion. Teaching against any religion is a religious act. It is the effort to promote a religious believe (or non-believe). So why are those that do believe in a religion being subjected to the efforts of the non-religious to force their religion down our throats. Personally I do not try to force my believes on others and only ask the non-religious to do the same. Stop trying to force your religion on me by way of the courts and the legislature. Especially when this forcing of religion is one of the thinks you claim is an evil of religion. Stop the hypocrisy.

Now please let this thread die.”

“The quicker y'all stop posting, the quicker it dies.”

“Amen, whoops, I think I started it again”

“I come into an environment on a daily basis that demands that I afix the blinders and perform my job without regard to anyone's beliefs, race, gender, religion, or whatever - including my own. I trust that Mr. Ashcroft will perform in a like manner.”

“.....keeping the thread alive.

Hey, it's Nigal! I thought you died or something.

Too bad you learned to elevate your concept of the sacred above criticism and blasphemy. You were a lot funner when it was vulnerable to my arguments. You know, it's the tendency for christians to be spiritually insecure that leaves their beliefs wide open to attack. It's so easy to offend a true believer (just use logic)! But now I'll have to cross you off my list, darnit. But there's plenty more insecure bible-thumping christians here that I can get a rise out of. Mtn gal, something tells me you're one of them. The "non-religion religion." LOL! That's, uh, quite a descriptive term you coined there. Sheesh, she's almost too easy of a target. "my believes" - too funny!

But nigal, don't get me off topic. We're talking ashcrack here....”

“Butt -
Was you dropped on yer hed when you was a leetle puppy?”

“mutt, so that's it??? the only reason that you interact with us is to try to piss some of us off?

man, go work out your aggressions somewhere else.”

“"the only reason that you interact with us is to try to piss some of us off?"

no, just you, radagast, just you.

No actually I like to engage in political debate when I can find a worthwhile opponent. It's fun shooting down conservative right wingers. Not too much opportunity here. Meaning no one's dared take me up on it.


As far as pi$$ing off christians - that's icing on the cake! Oh, it's a good time to be a non-religion religion person. heh heh, that cracks me up.”

“Actually, assuming I'm just trying to pi$$ off christians is a little misleading.

There's LOTs of things wrong with christianity. Whether you're looking at the actions of the church, its history, the effects of guilt & fear on individuals, the inaccuracy of the Bible, the closed-mindedness, the bigotry against homosexuals, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, when I start to criticize christianity, christians can't handle it due to their insecurities and defensiveness. And so they accuse me of just trying to pi$$ them off, or that I'm being those things I'm criticising their religion of being. I mean it's interesting to see such supposedly spiritual secure people let themselves get upset over legitimate criticism of their religion. I helped show Nigal that he's capable of rising above this. Good for him.”

“The "secure" Christians don't bite...”

“Oh, I think I just got a nibble!

I'd say it's more a function of intelligence than security, le subtil.

The intelligent christians know they have no way to defend what is obviously wrong with their religion, so they don't bother making fools of themselves trying. Plus, they're too smart to show their anger & insecurity to me. But I know it's there! I can feel it. Christians HATE critical analyses of their religion! They HAVE to believe their religion is virtuous, or they're going to HELL!! LOL!”

“Mutt you sound like a guy who has never been laid.

Mt. Girl. Great commentary and I do believe that is your picture.

Welcome back Nigal. I've been hoping you'd come around on this one. Why don't you quit this one comment a week crap and come home for good. WE NEED HUMOR HERE BAD.
Cabin Fever is killing the troops.”

“oh, le subtil, it also works both ways. Solitary hiker, for example, isn't intelligent enough to form an argument, so he won't engage me either. So it's the christians in the middle of the IQ curve that I probably debate with the most.”

“Mutt,

I am not sure I get your point. I am no genius, but I have a reasonable intellect and I am having trouble following your posts. Are you looking for Christians to debate issues that you disagree with?”

“"But there's plenty more insecure bible-thumping christians here that I can get a rise out of."

"And so they accuse me of just trying to pi$$ them off..."

i thought that "getting a rise out of" and "pissing off" were along the same lines. if not, then you won't "get a rise out of" me! LOL!!!! i don't swing that way!”

“bacpac, no. I was, but it didn't work out. I'll try back again, though.

Radagast, I thought you swinged EVERY way......

Ok, I'm outta here!”

“Dude I love this Mutt guy. I didn't think there was anyone who hated bible thumpers as much as me. Freedom from religion is the greatest right in this country...next to the one that allows me to say that. The right to chose to practice a religion or not is a right that I am willing to fight and die for. So if you want to practice a religion fine, just don't feel that it is your right to force it on others....We don't want it.”

“Mutt, I believe people do not like to get into arguements about defending their religions, because the Bible is to be interpretated. I don't think anyone knows the exact interpretation.”

“I will be out of town a few days so if something comes to mind Mutt, I would be glad to enlighten you.

13fist, I hope no one is trying to force religion on you, dude.”

“Hey, did ya hear the one about John Ashcroft walking into a bar and he sees an heathen squirrel getting a lap dance....?”

“To paraphrase a saying popular a few years back, it isn't about religion--it's about perjury. ;-)Ashcroft lied under oath in his confirmation hearings. (Specifically, he claimed to be unaware of the nature of Southern Partisan magazine--despite the fact that his interview had been a major issue in his 2000 senate race. He made a number of other statements that appear to be false, but would take a little more work to prove.) Curious that the conservatives are less enthusiastic in enforcing perjury laws against one of their own...”

“When the direct actions of John Ashcroft have caused the incineration of 80+ pro abortion activists including 20 minors (like our last Attorney General did at Waco) come starting ranting tehipite. Until then save your moaning about "Southern Partisan" for all the other Yankees who know absolutely nothing about the South.”

“I don't know diddly squat about Ashcroft, but judging by those who voted not to confirm him, I think he's a great choice.”

“Koresh murdered those people. He had the chance to surrender, and he didn't. He had a chance to send out the children, and he didn't.

And I didn't say anything one way or the other about Southern Partisan. I just made the point that, while under oath, Ashcroft misrepresented his own knowledge about Southern Partisan.”

“Solitary Hiker, WTF? Nice non-sequitor response to Tehipite! What could possibly be your motivation to continue to post your idiotic mumbling to this thread after I exposed you as the moron you are? What a complete embarrassement to the other conservatives in this forum! Especially the christian conservatives! Do you HONESTLY believe that voicing support for a magazine that is considered to harbor racist sentiment by a wide swath of politically centered and not-so-centered people is going to win you friends? I'm actually a little surprised at your stupidity. Not even bacpac is that dumb. If I was a southern christian conservative, I would be putting as much distance between me and you as I possible could. Hell, even if I was racist, I wouldn't show my support for you in this public forum. Wow, I can't even begin to fathom what a pathetically inept person you must be.”

“Muttley, you've got me laughing my mutt off! You are like a DJ...the hits just keep on coming! I think you might have underestimated bait-pac a little, though. When he backs up his points, he can be a good adversary.
Mtn. Gal...your post about non-religion religion might work until the religious people in government happen to be Wiccans, or even buddhists and want to influence us with their beliefs. There would be no end to the howling and anger. That's why most minority religions keep their beliefs to themselves, (as we all should, when it comes to government). We don't need freedom from religion. We need freedom from state-sponsored religious influence.

Unless, of course, it's Baptist......LOL!!!”

“tehipite the BATF could have easily arrested Koresh on any Saturday afternoon when he was down at the quitar store. But no, they had all that new black Kelvar gear to try out and they've become fond of busting down doors. Just because Koresh wanted to force the issue didn't mean the FBI had to call his bluff.
Janet Reno called the shot to use those tanks with the CF gas and the result was 20 children died.
And remember, it was alleged child abuse that the federals were trying to prevent. That was kinda like destroying the village in Viet Nam to save it from communism. Way to go Janet.

Mutt have you ever seen a copy of "Southern Partisan"?
Be honest for once. I didn't think so. You're just flapping your gums as usual.
As far as me trying to win friends in here, well if I have to tow some politically correct line just win "friends", then I don't want them. I'm a big boy now. I can deal with rejection when necessary.”

“I lost track of the score...who's ahead?

I agree with solitary re: the ATF was more at fault at Waco.
However....the ATF and their macho attitude was way out of hand before Reno had to take unwarranted responsibility. She was kept in the dark about way too many events to be the sole scapegoat.”

“Dunadan for better or worse you are responsible for what happens on your watch,wether informed or not.Reno ultimately IS responsible for WACO,she said so much publicly after it occured.
As a simple aside, Koresh on countless occasions let local law enforcement and social service employees (investigating abuse to no avail)to enter his home. I reckon the feds wanted a show of force and to justify all of their toys and whatnot. There was also a violation of "Posse Comitatus" a law that prohibits the use of military equipment and material against American citizens.
Koresh was a kook, I have no sympathy for him, I do however believe that many of those killed that April day were innocent...like 20 kids.If the feds hadnt forced their hand the end result may have differed.”

“Reno did accept responsibility, something that many government people are unwilling to do.
Speaking of responsibility, how about those Marine officers who deny their lying about the danger and unreliabilty of the Osprey aircraft.
They wrap themselves in the flag and act hurt that anyone would DARE accuse them of lying.

Saaaayyyy, why don't they take AssKKKroft and Norton for a test ride in one of those?”

“I just read the "non-religion religion" thing....TOO funny!!!
Somebody's gonna hafta "interpretate" that fer me!
That sounds like a Bushism to me!
That's as good as "strategery"!”

“I agree that the BATF made mistakes (although the precise nature of those mistakes is open to dispute and interpretation). Ultimately, though, Koresh chose his fate and either coerced or manipulated the other 80 into dying with him.

This isn't a partisan thing for me. When MOVE was bombed, it was a disaster for the innocent people who got burned out--but I had not an iota of sympathy for the MOVE members, who chose their own destruction.

Bottom line: if you start taking shots at federal agents, you can be pretty sure it's going to end in death.”

“Any sympathy for the children of Move members who perished in the fire? The Police dropped C-4 on an urban row home. Do you know what a row home is? Move members had been observed pouring liquids down the chimneys of neighboring homes before the bomb (satchel) was dropped.
Move members shot a fireman years prior to the famous blaze. The fire dept was hosing through the windows, supporting an ineveitable police assault when shots rang out. The Fire Commish ordered his men out of harms way after the C-4 was dropped. All the Fire Dept and much of the citizenry respect him for that decision. Others blame his inaction on the destruction of the 60 plus (I think) homes.”

“Tehipite, We all agree that Koresh was nuts.And we know that there were folks at Mt Carmel that had a desire for a shootout.The feds knew this too. Why did they not take this option away. Simply surround them and wait, dont do things to provoke( if you know your neighbors dog wants to bite you dont pet him through the fence)like send in teams to shoot there dogs and dont keep buzzing the place with helicopter gunships. I know that would make me a bit edgy.The FBI IS supposed to be trained to take charge, the failed to do so here.

There were other options. The safest would have been to continue the seige. Notice how FBI tactics changed when they dealt With The "Freemen" in Montana. In that case no shots were fired and the "good guys" won. It just took time. And we all can agree that 80 lives (granted many were kooks) are worth lots of time and money.

The agents in the raid had been trained by the military at Ft Bliss Tx. It makes me uneasy when the army and police start sharing trade secrets . A show of force was what was wanted, and show of force was what we got. To quote the deputy police chief who's opinion about ctizen involvment differed from mine " if you're gonna make omelets, you're gonna break eggs"

And I agree that law enforcement folks have a right to use deadly force, but that is the last option on their "force continuum"”

“Flyguy, yes I have sympathy for the children of the MOVE members--and I don't dispute that it was a criminally destructive fiasco. I'm just saying that the adult MOVE members chose death, just as the Waco Flako did.

Hyperpacker, you and I seem to agree that Koresh was looking for Armageddon, and we agree that the Feds mishandled the situation. I'm just saying that it's absurd to say the Feds 'murdered' them. When somebody chooses death, you may have an obligation to do whatever you can to keep it from happening; but if you happen to fail, even if it's through your own screwup, that hardly constitutes murder.”

“I think Koresh was primarily reponsible for the deaths. But there were many places where the Feds screwed up.

One place was in the assessment that kids were being tortured, the methods used to get those kids to describe sexual abuse in the compound are the one's that have been used and dissproven in generated fals accusation, including some of the bizarre "day care ritual abuse" rings. Reno did help build her career in FLA with zealous prosecutions on the basis of bad forensic evidence when it came to child abuse cases.

I think Reno got bashed worse than she deserved and is more principled than she is pictured to be. Still, she screwed up badly in some cases.”

“Reno is nice. Especially in the winter. Ashcroft, BC is a cool town too.”

“I leave for a couple days and the other undesirables slither in.

Hi tehipite”

“The Branch Davidian compound flew the Stars and Stripes - they were Americans.

I'm certainly not advocating whatever their beliefs may have been, but then, I don't neccessarily believe in what many "mainstream" organizations uphold. Koresh was no doubt a kook, and he was likely guilty of some crimes. Our American system has certain guidelines pertaining to justice, and the ATF, FBI, Reno, etc, did a lousy job of weilding justice. It was a farce.”

“Gojo,

I agree. I think they should have demanded they surrender on the first day. Failing that they should have launched an assault and driven them to surrender. This stand off BS is for the birds.”

“ALL HAIL MUTT!!!! The man has an answer for everything granted it is his opinion so its value is meaningless to others.

Silence will claim the attention of everyone, but those that speak in poor turn are easily known.

LOL, you are a flamer. I like it. You should get into politics or be a lawyer, man, you are so arguementative. I bet you were Catholic growing up and got rub the wrong way. LOL.

Where did this disdain of religion originate? Care to shed some light on that.

And why do you insist on the witty badgering of people that are as opinionated as you. Your "logic" doesn't show you the fallacy there? If not you should look for another avenue in the arguement if you wanting a "win". A couple of "p" words come to mind noticeably, presumptuous and pretentious when I think of your comments to the other in here.

But of course that is just my opinion!!”

“BR, All I get out of his posts is 'hate you love me.'”

“hyper, I'm with you all the way in regard to your un-ease about the military presence at Waco. Did you see "Waco, Rules Of Engagement"? There are some points that have since been disproven, but it is a eye-opening documentary. Worth the rental fee.”

“Briar Rabbit, since you asked so politely, there are many good reasons I dislike christianity. First, christianity is a social construct. The bible was simply made up by humanity. I destest the belief that it's somehow the sole word of god. While I believe there are spiritual christians who do good, I think those people would be spiritual and doing good no matter what religion they belonged to (if any). Christianity has little to do with fostering good in the world. The old testament certainly reflects the violent and vindictive nature of the culture that gave birth to it. Christianity spread not because hordes of heretics suddenly saw the bright light of irrefutable truth, but rather through violence, forceful conversion, and brainwashing. We still have the church converting people using the brainwashing technique of instilling fear of what can?t possibly be known (judgement after life/heaven & hell), and guilt of any behavior the church declares evil. What a simple yet effective formula for controlling people, especially when working with hapless children. Sheer genius, although it?s an evil genius. It certainly has worked well throughout history. Today, mix guilt and fear with copius amounts of hatred/repulsion of anything and everything not sanctioned by the church, and you have your modern day, blind, religious sheep person who can?t think for him/herself. Put these people in a social institution that has government support in the form of tax exemption, and a mission to influence politics & public schooling, and you have a disgusting self-serving religion interested solely in power, influence, and control.

I could go on and on about the abuses of christianity. Or the bigotry of christians. Or the closemindedness of christians. Or the unwillingness of christians to sincerely recognize the validity of other belief systems. Or the hypocrisy of forcing a strict standard of behavior on everyone but yourself. Or trying to discredit science where it contradicts the christian view of the world. Or ignoring any and all valid criticism of christianity. Or getting angry and defensive with any perceived blasphemy or defamation.

Like I said, I could go on and on. I studied religion for a while in grad school, and if really motivated and arguing with the right person, I can bring in a bunch of well supported research that illustrates the problems christianity creates for society. I love to instill sincere doubt in the minds of true believers, particularly those who believe in the worthiness of the scientific method. Few things in life are more gratifying than completely destroying a bible-thumper in a debate or instilling a seed of doubt in their mind about the nature of their religion.

I guess it comes down to this: christians deserve a second chance in life, and I am willing to do what I can to bring them to their senses!”

“Jesus! I'm impressed! How long did you work on that response!?! No, really. It is beautifully written. I still don't see your motivation for knocking folks off their high horse, but then you don't have to answer to me!”