John Ashcroft

“I have not read every post here but I do see a pattern. Mutt attacks Christians (we understand your point I am not asking to read it again). Are there any religions at all that Mutt does not distain? I noticed that Mutt launched his attacks on people that never said they were Christian, just religion. So teach us Mutt, If religion is evil and wrong, is there a purpose for our lives? Is there any reason to live by any moral code at all? Tell us what you believe is the right way to live. Now understand that when asking directions being told not to follow one of the many roads is of limited use. We understand that for you Christianity is the wrong road, which one is the right one and why?”

“yeah, mutt. your second paragraph is fantastic!”

“That's quite a list, Mutt. And not badly said. I won't dispute any of your allegations. Humanity historically has been quite cruel.

Humor me for a moment -
Do you think that none of these wrongs have ever been committed by any secular organizations? (Does the Church have an exclusive on evil?)

Conversely, do you attribute any good at all to organized religion? (Societal control is necessary in some fashion, no? What about the golden rule or the Ten Commandments?)

All the Christians I know are human, and as such imperfect. Power tends to corrupt, weather wielded by a Pope or schoolyard bully.

I can only speak for myself; but I'm certainly not perfect or holy, but I believe God is. I do not hold him accountable for my failures; in fact I praise him for the gift of free will.

I'm not trying to change your mind - I'm not that naive, nor do I care much. I merely wish to show how one Christian (myself) justifies his faith.”

“Well said, Le Subtil!”

“I don't won't to be allying myself with the bashing of specific religions. Christianity is too diverse for Mutt's attacks to apply to the breadth of traditions that are Christianity.

However, I am highly allergic to any system of thought, whether it arises in a monotheistm, atheism or poolytheism whic suggest that human beings can know who lives in light and who in darkness, who is bound for heaven and who belongs in hell. The Bible as I read it does not claim human beings can know this.”

“Well said and sensible!”

“I think I am gonna run from this thread.”

“I'm staying away from the "lick wash" thread. I heard about that kind of activity and find it repulsive.”

“Mutt, I wish to point out that Christians are not supposed to be following a church but CHRIST. Christ did not participate in the crusades, etc.”

“Mutt, there is nothing wrong about learning of other religions, but if you are Christian, and firm in your belief, why wouldn't a Christian want others "to see the light and the glory which is God"?”

“He is talking Crusades and such. Those Christians soldiers marching as to War, with the cross of Jesus... slaughtered people due to their religious convictions. Charlemaign and the whole lot were a murderous bunch.”

“fg6x -
That was during an era we call the Dark Ages - it was humanities darkest moment.


Then came The Renaissance - an awakening... a rebirth.

During the Renaissance, a religious order called the Cistertians (?) arose in LaTrapp, France . Today, we call them Trappists. They have a monastery in an adjacent county from where I live. I have taken several retreats at their retreat house.

I defy anyone to spend time with those gentlemen and still say that religion is a farce. They, along with Mother Teresa, John Paul II, Billy Graham, Ghandi, et al, are examples of the virtuousness of religion.”

“I don't think the witch burnings, the destruction of competing "new" religions, the crusades, nearly 2,000 years of lethal lethal anti-semetism, the inquisition and other things done in the name of Christ can serve to condemn Christianity as a whole or even the churches that promoted these events (e.g. Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and several Protestant groupings). What it does mean is that not every one who claims to be actint in accordance with Christ's teachings deserves trust and respect. It shows that many many people who have been popularly recognizing as acting in Christ's name have acted in concerted and monstrous fashion.

But, it does not erase the very many things that have been done in the name of Christ.

Moral: The Christian "label" is no guarantee of goodness or badness, we're all gonna hafta think for ourselves. One useful guide line is "by their fruits ye shall know them."”

“Mutts talking in the present tense. I was just pointing out, that historically, people have done great injustices to one another, in the name of God/Religion/Allah/Jesus/Mao, etc........

I agree that the folks you list may indeed be virtuous examples of religion, but not necessarilly examples of the virtuousness of religion.”

“People sometime claim to be religious for political reasons. They have no interest in living by the religions teachings just the gain they can get from the association. You know, like Bill Clinton going to church with the cameras watching or Jesse Jackson or some of our televangelists. Some have gone so far as to take control of the religious organization and use the power for evil. These religious organizations then cease being the church of their god but just another political organization pretending to do gods will. There is no argument that these false churches have done evil. What does that mean? It means the political organization is bad not necessarily that the teachings of the church whose name they usurped are bad. I am a member of a culture and religion that has been the target of some of the evils of these usurped churches but I still recognize that there is some good in their teachings. Hold to that good, reject the bad and look for the religion that encompasses all good and rejects all evil. Mutt is just in a position of pride that will not permit him to learn. He has mistaken learning for wisdom.”

“whew! i need a beer or 12”

“WOW!!! Mutt, I bet you could go on and on. But you know that really does not solve this problem you have with the church.

You see nothing but negetivity when it comes to the Christian Church and maybe religion for that matter. What you fail (maybe) to see is the good that the others see and get from it. What happen to your scientific method, did you throw that out?
I read nothing but personal hear say and preformulated bais opinions based mostly likely on studies of others opinions. I know about the blood shed caused by religions so spared me that.

As well as a severe case of over generalization of religion and its followers. Lumping all the bad apples that you have encountered or read about and those you know absolutely nothing about in to one basket and mashing them into bad tasting cider. Is that really fair to those others?

Now I could throw out alot of good wholesome sounding adjectives that all religions have provided and taught us to counter what was stated in your responce. But why, you now what they are, you practice them daily in your life, well I hope so at least. So you see no goodness in the religious teachings? Its all just brainwashing techniques that instill fear!

You know if there is one thing you should have gotten from your formal education is to keep an open mind. You sound as stubborn and opinionated as those you are trying to give a second chance at life too. You know, its my way or the wrong way mentality. And that is just wrong. It is a shame what a little extra education can do to a person.

Now I am not standing up for the church, far from it, but I can't deny the values and morals blah blah blah, that it provided me in my youth that I share with others today.
There may yet come a day when I will go back to the church, most likely when I am married w/kids and need to get away from the old lady and take a nap!”

“I suppose Mutt's last post is as rational as we can expect. Please allow me....


First, Christianity is a social construct. Christians are certainly guilty of developing a social community. What segment of the human population isn't social?

The bible was simply made up by humanity. The Bible is Man's interpretation of God's word. It is arguably not the only interpretation. Between, Geneses and MTV, the written word was the predominant means of human communication.

I destest the belief that it's somehow the sole word of god. I sense a lot of hatred in you.

While I believe there are spiritual christians who do good, I think those people would be spiritual and doing good no matter what religion they belonged to (if any). Why do you believe this?
Christianity has little to do with fostering good in the world. Surely you don't believe this.
The old testament certainly reflects the violent and vindictive nature of the culture that gave birth to it. Christianity spread not because hordes of heretics suddenly saw the bright light of irrefutable truth, but rather through violence, forceful conversion, and brainwashing. There will always be misguided human beings. Our humanity is what limits our ability to be pure. We must learn from our sins, not dwell on them.

We still have the church converting people using the brainwashing technique of instilling fear of what can't possibly be known (judgement after life/heaven & hell), and guilt of any behavior the church declares evil. We all fear the unknown. The church provides comfort and redemption. Faith is more powerful than fear.

What a simple yet effective formula for controlling people, especially when working with hapless children. Sheer genius, although it's an evil genius. There is no genius or evil in Christianity, you are babbling.

It certainly has worked well throughout history. Today, mix guilt and fear with copius amounts of hatred/repulsion of anything and everything not sanctioned by the church, and you have your modern day, blind, religious sheep person who can't think for him/herself. You are grossly misguided. Christians rely on the Church for strength. We are all sinners who aspire to more be more reverent. The Church does not control us, we seek to control ourselves. We strive to live in God's image.

Put these people in a social institution that has government support in the form of tax exemption, and a mission to influence politics & public schooling, and you have a disgusting self-serving religion interested solely in power, influence, and control. It sounds like you are describing the Rainbow Coalition.

I could go on and on about the abuses of christianity. Yawn Or the bigotry of christians. Huh? Or the closemindedness of christians. Who could be more close minded than Mutt? Or the unwillingness of christians to sincerely recognize the validity of other belief systems. Not true! Or the hypocrisy of forcing a strict standard of behavior on everyone but yourself. We hold ourselves to the highest standard. Or trying to discredit science where it contradicts the christian view of the world. Mutt, you have defined discredit.with your ad hock attack on Christians. Or ignoring any and all valid criticism of christianity. I am not ignoring your attack. Or getting angry and defensive with any perceived blasphemy or defamation. Your blasphemy is not perceived, it IS defamation.

Like I said, I could go on and on. Zzzzzzz I studied religion for a while in grad school, and if really motivated and arguing with the right person, I can bring in a bunch of well-supported research that illustrates the problems christianity creates for society. Bring it Muttley I love to instill sincere doubt in the minds of true believers, particularly those who believe in the worthiness of the scientific method. Why is that?

Few things in life are more gratifying than completely destroying a bible-thumper in a debate or instilling a seed of doubt in their mind about the nature of their religion. Is that because you are still seeking the truth?

I guess it comes down to this: christians deserve a second chance in life, and I am willing to do what I can to bring them to their senses! Don't you really desire your own second chance?”

“I stand before you as a sinner. I am strong as a man, but weak in the eyes of God. My faith is not strong enough to overcome my human desires.

I am a Christian.”

“One of the greatest Christian's who ever lived was Paul the Apostle. After his fearful incident on Damascus road, he was never the same. There was a time when he was involved in dragging Christians from their homes to put them in prison. He also was involved in the killing of the first Christian martyr Stephen.

Interestingly, while once he was opposed to Christ, but committed to another form of academic and religious thought, he eventually turned around with a passion. He continues to have a deep and lasting impact on the world.

Those who are earnestly opposed to Christianity, watch 'em. There's a chance that passion could be redirected.”

“Who could be more close minded than Mutt?

Gee, I don't know. Give me a hint?!?!?!”

“hey, Hey, HEY!!! Where in hell was this dialogue last week when I was bored & between projects at work?!? I've read your posts & would love to make a substantive reply, but it's going to have to wait,c ause work is going to be a real mofo for a few days.”

“I guess Mutt and Zen Hiker are commiserating amongst themselves.”

“John Ashcroft is a twinkie!”

“what happened to mutt? i thought he was eager to answer all the points raised on this thread last week? i guess not that eager. or perhaps he has no answers. he must have run outta hot air!”

“Joy: "what happened to mutt?"
Mutt: "got busy."

Joy: "I thought he was eager to answer all the points raised on this thread last week?"
Mutt: "Yeah I was until I became bored with it and then got busy at work and with other stuff."

Joy: "I guess not that eager."
Mutt: "I was, but then the mood left."

Joy: "Or perhaps he has no answers."
Mutt: "Does anyone? I could argue religion with everyone, but I would have to be really motivated to go to all that effort. I was, but now I'm not. The way I see it, I let all you get in the last word. But you can go ahead and believe I'm a coward who got outclassed in argument and ran away crying if that makes you happy."

Joy: "he must have run outta hot air!"
Mutt: "That probably sums it up best. Look out though, if another political/religious thread comes up...Mutt's gonna kick some butts!"

Bacpac, thanks for giving me the idea to bold my reply. When is this site going to get a modern forum? This forum is an archaic PITA. Having to use html code...savage! And not being able to edit your posts...very irritating!”

“Yeah, we have right-wing religious nut for Attorney General.
I wonder if Azzcroft talks to god on company time.
Maybe he seeks advice from "above" on matters of law and jurisprudence.
That would be unfortunate since the laws of the US were written by popularly ELECTED human citizens and not supernatural beings.”

“Funny how many of us belly ache about separation of church and state and downplay the importance of a religion as a unifying factor and yet Congress starts each day with a pray. I wonder!!!!”

“Yeah, what's up wth that?
I wish they wold just knock that sh!t off!

It could be that if some one were to suggest stopping that little exercise and keeping the US Congress religiously neutral they would be accused of being a "godless communist".
That could be the political kiss of death and they could forget about re-election!

Many politicians must go through that religious charade in order to avoid offending constituents.

Any perceived lack of interest in religion can and will be used against them by unscrupulous political opponents.

Such politicians are willing to drape themselves in the phony mantle of godliness in order to anger and divide constituents.”

“In God we trust....

Tom T good pts., I really could care less about the Congressial morning prayer. It is rather harmless in my book besides there is hardly a full house at any give time to hear it.

We are a religious country. People vote with religion in mind. Many politicians are religious like it or not. There are votes to be had, and if one is to go against the norm they will most likely not be elected. So they have to appease or show a front to the masses. That does not mean they will abide to their beliefs once elected. I 've seen plenty of wafflers in my time saying one thing and then doing another.

Give a inch and they will want a mile. They have their inch and will never get the rest. The thought of separation of church and state is to entrenched into our beliefs. Similiar to (dare I say it) the 2nd amend. in away. Many will strive for more laws (their inch) and try to amending the 2nd(the mile) but it will never happen. Because the importance of 2nd. out weights what could happen for better or worse.

Wow that should fan the flame!!”

“I went to the GACTE breakfast at (near) the GA capitol last Thursday. On the podium were thet governor, lt. gov., speaker of the house, state school supt., et al. In the audience were legislators, teachers, and students. The morning's business was preceded by an invocation.
I found that to be an EXCELLENT opportunity to sit quietly and reflect for a moment. I was humbled to be in the presence of some of the brightest and most respectable kids in America. Even more humbling was the realization that several of them - the VICA State Leadership Team, for whom I am an advisor - look to me for guidance.”

“Well, I ain't no commie (was once, but it got old), but you can call me that if you wish.
Don't call me Godless tho' because I've got dozens of 'em (and thats not even counting the Godesses and the genderless dieties).

Let's have public prayer, but make sure us Pagans get our turn.”

“Amen, brother!
Hell yes!
As long as they pray to my favorite rock along with THEIR gods I won't file a suit!

It's time to amend or ditch the Second Amendment!
Flame on brothers and sisters!!!”

“Amen and Awomyn! Bro. Tom!

If we are really sensitive to the religious majority in this country (based on acts of devotion, worship and where people spend the Sabbath) we'd have to say Money is #1. Maybe the Congress should recite hot stock tips before they open their sessions!

I'd hafta say tho, that guns are an important religious icon to many (divine objects in themselves to others). Gun control is a serious violation of our freedom to worship.”

“-2 1/3 points for Tom and Ped for sarcasm.”

“I think there should be a separation of State and Sport. To often, municipalities are ponying up taxpayer's dough for the construction of stadiums and highways to serve them. The (rich) teamowners should pay for their place of business.”

“1 point for Flyguy6x for a clear and concise statement.”

“And my posts remain pointless!!!”

“You said it, Ped.”

“I agree with you flyguy6x.”

“Fer joy, fer joy!
Saaaaaaaay hellalooyaaaaah!!!

Those BIG religious rumbles that are held in stadiums gottsta be some money-makin' events!

The crooked-ass team owners, such as right here in Baltimore(ya know, home of the Giant-Smokin' Big Black Birds From Hell), should pay for the stadium construction AND the stadium should belong to the PEOPLE!!!

Oh yeah, and hey Ashcroft, UP YOURS!!!”

“so, some business should build a stadium so it can BELONG TO THE PEOPLE????

you are not THAT stupid, man!”

“I like that better than THE PEOPLE payin' for some big business's playground and makin' NONE of the profit.

Here in Bawlmer the taxpayers payed $220 Millions for Pissnet Stadium and that thief Modell pays no rent!
And HE got the $ Millions from Pissnet for their name!

And, YES, I am stupid!
What's yer excuse?”

“When did stupid become an excuse? I am ready for the natural selection process to regain popularity.”

“Know what?
Y'all do jus like old womans!”

“Yesterday, I was rebuked by a guy named Mutt. Today, I am rebuked by a guy who thinks he is a mutt. I think it's about time for the flea collar?”

“Where is Muttley? Did the headmaster revoke his whining privileges?”

“Mr slacpac -
DO NOT GET A FLEE COLLER!
They will break off when you are walkin in the woods and be litter.

Try shampu.”

“Flea collar? What was I thinking? Get the choke chain!”

“Hey bacpac, sorry if I was too harsh. you give like you get, you know. so do i, though, and more. Actually, I'm beginning to see that you're considerably more dynamic and intelligent than the monosyllabic blockhead that I thought you werBWAHAHAHAHA! Man, I just couldn't keep a straight face while typing that. heh heh. j/k”