Religious squabbling thread

“Barlo, have you tried asking the Big Guy himself after doing your own research?”

“These are just words that form lines of temporary meaning that acts as a mirror to our ego driven minds to create a feeling of joy or one of sorrow.

A strong mind would not feel either joy or sorrow, but rather realize the insignificance of the situation and the impermanence of all things such as this.”

“barlo: my parents were raised christian by parents who forced them to go to church (we're talking the fire & brimstone kinda church). They didn't appreciate it, so they resolved not to force religion down their kids' throats. This was the best gift they've given us. So consider yourself lucky. When I see good people feeling guilty about their behavior and fearing judgement after life and being closed off to anything outside their religion, I realize just how lucky I am to escape that. Of course religions are superstitions. They're human creations designed to explain the unexplainable. So survey them all and notice which aspects match what you already believe in, and go from there. You have a great chance to advance your spirituality beyond what most religious sheep people could ever hope to achieve. You're free, dude, make the most of it.”

“Forced? Come on Mutt they were kids at the time. Are you going to tell me that kids know what is best for them? Your grandparents thought they were doing what was best for their child, your parents.
Do you lay into your grandparents like you have some of those here? I wonder what Xmas time is like in the Mutt family household.

Jesse James? You make me laugh. You and about 100k+ others think the same thing. LOL.”

“Barlo - If you think you know more than God does then do what mutt says, trust your own judgment (you have never been wrong about anything have you?). If you think God knows more than you then ask God. But if you know more than God let me know, it would mean I should be worshipping you. If God makes mistakes you can not trust Him, so just skip religion or ?spirituality? altogether.”

“Mtn Gal, talking with the Gods is a big part of the problem. Do I really expect a voice in my head or an angel to appear? If I do start hearing voices I'd suspect mental illness.

When I tried to pray in the past to get an answer to some question, the voice that replied was in my heart not my head. And I learned that I knew the answer all along. Praying was just a trick to get me to see what I knew, not communication with a supreme being.
I've found that meditation or just honestly thinking the problem through is just as effective.
(Disclaimer: I don't always have the right answers [and it doesn't seem to work with lottery numbers], but neither do the people who get them from a God. [or they would all be rich]. So DON'T worship me. )”

“Mutt, I do feel lucky most of the time. Logic and honest consideration goes a long way. Where it falls short is in dealing with tragedy.
My life hasn't been very tragic but I know people who aren't so lucky. And I've noted the comfort they seem to take in religion.
When you are in a situation out of your control I can see the appeal in being able to hand it off to a 'higher power'.
I think this, like praying, is a psychological trick, but effective none the less.”

“I am getting the picture that mutt objects to organized religion because he doesn?t want to be told that anything he does is wrong. He does not want any standards for behavior. He wants no judgment. He wants to believe that it doesn?t matter what kind of person you are as long as you are ?spiritual?. God has no rules, no law? I hope I am wrong and there is something more to it, otherwise it is just an intellectual rationalization to justify his own faults without any effort to become a better person. Of course if there is no law there is no way to define what it is to improve yourself. I don?t mean to offend mutt, it is just that he has analyzed why we ?sheep? follow a religion so I thought I would return the favor.

Barlo ? It takes practice to recognize the answers and no don?t expect angels or voices. It is in your heart It is easiest if you make a decision and ask for confirmation, yes or no. Trust this important question to no man and keep up the search. It is no trick.”

“mtn gal, how do you manage to consistently miss my point. Only a fool believes without any uncertainty that his/her perspective on life is absolutely correct: Barlo has a chance to avoid religion and thus this human pitfall. I'm not saying that it's okay to live life without standards of conduct. I'm not justifying my faults by avoiding taking responsibility. What I'm suggesting is that you don't have to blindly follow man-made rules that are falsely presented as God's Laws. You don't have to buy into a fairy-tale explanation of the afterlife, and you sure as hell don't have to embrace guilt, fear, and a judgemental God. What I'm saying is that there is a core truth to most religions, and it's better to identify that truth and seek a higher individual understanding without becoming ensnared in all the CRAP that makes up the bulk of religion. It's that simple. Actually, I like your last paragraph. Rugged spiritual individualism. That's what Americans should strive for, not blind adherence to a corrupt, dogmatic, stagnant religion.

BR: I'm crushed you don't believe me! It's my only claim to fame...”

“Mutt,
Some people preach to the choir; you are preaching to the pews.”

“Mutt - I am not talking about following any religion blindly. I too think that is wrong. What I am saying is that you can follow a religion with full knowledge and eyes wide open. But you will only find that religion by seek knowledge from the one being that will not, cannot mislead you, God.

I am glad my analyses was wrong. But if God does have laws how do you find out what they are? I know how I find them, I am curious about how you do it.”

“Wild Child, I totally disagree. A strong mind can feel and bear strong passions... not become dispassionate, detached and unimpressed.

And you quote Jim Morisson and Nietzsche????

"What is unchanging and permanent, that is but an image"”

“"Of course religions are superstitions." Mutt

"What I'm saying is that there is a core truth to most religions, " Mutt in his next post.

What is he really saying? I think Mutt simply has some misguided ideas about religion and it is confusing him.”

“Oops, wrong links, try these Quote 1

Quote 2”

“bacpac, your post seems to beg for clarifiaction of Mutt's statements, yet you cited only snippets of what he was conveying. I do not speak for Mutt (he surely does a better job at conveying his beliefs than I possibly could) yet by reading the entire posts his ideas indeed seem to be well guided and consistent.

Quote 1
"Of course religions are superstitions. They're human creations designed to explain the unexplainable. So survey them all and notice which aspects match what you already believe in, and go from there."
This was Mutt's urging Barlo to investigate what "works" for Barlo in regard to his personal exploration of religion/spirituality.

Quote 2
"What I'm suggesting is that you don't have to blindly follow man-made rules that are falsely presented as God's Laws. You don't have to buy into a fairy-tale explanation of the afterlife, and you sure as hell don't have to embrace guilt, fear, and a judgemental God. What I'm saying is that there is a core truth to most religions, and it's better to identify that truth and seek a higher individual understanding without becoming ensnared in all the CRAP that makes up the bulk of religion. It's that simple."

It seems to me that Mutt has conceded that spirituality (core truth) is at the heart of religions (perhaps most.) If we could only shed the hocus/pocus, and individually, personally embrace the essence or crux of spiritual goodness and right we would be more whole. We should not settle for other mortals to dictate how we choose to express our spiritual reflections.”

“Did I lay that???”

“"...man-made rules that are falsely presented as God's laws."
~Butt

My Church openly "man-made" rules, as well as God's.
They are Devine laws, ie, the Ten Commandments, etc, and Church laws, ie, reconcilliation, etc..”

“there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”

“Bible Puzzle
-------------
Can you find the names of 16 books from the Bible in the paragraph below without the aid of your bible? (One minister found 15 of the books in 20 minutes, but it took him weeks to find the last one.)


I once made the remark about the hidden books of the Bible. It was a lulu; kept people looking so hard for facts... and for others it was a revelation. Some were in a jam, especially since the names of the books were not capitalized. But the truth finally struck home to numbers of our readers. To others it was a real job. We want it to be a most fascinating few moments for you. Yes, there will be some really easy ones to spot. Others may require judges to help them. I will quickly admit it usually takes a minister to find one of them, and there will be loud lamentations when it is found. A little lady says she brews a cup of tea so she can concentrate better. See how well you can compete. Relax now, for there really are sixteen names of books of the Bible in this paragraph.”

“flyguy6x, well said, and that's basically what I was trying to get across; thanks. It's really a pretty simple message I think.”

“Lumpy,
I assume that's a quote from your holy book. What does it mean?”

“I am "virtually" dousing myself with fuel and lighting myself on fire to prove my point.”

“i could only find 13 in 20 minutes. good stuff!”

“i think it bemoans the lack of good dentists in biblical times?”

“Mutt, thanks so much for your interest in my faith. Its encouraging to know that you care for others and their experience. The comments/jokes made were not offensive to me. They were not about me,hence I am not insulted. I would GUESS (i stress guess) that Christ would not get a chuckle outta last supper jokes. But who knows he might really get a hoot outta crucifiction jokes too. I doubt that though. I am not trying to suppress anyones speech. I am merely observing a general tone of what is acceptable and what things would go over like a fart in church.

Ped yes Christ was a Jew. However your jokes didnt have to do with His " jewishness".I guess by your line of thought its okay for blacks to say nigger but not whites.Would you tell gay jokes to a gay person?

BTW Mutt, to use a line of discussion you are so fond of...You must really be insecure in your anti-religion point of veiw that you feel it necessary to post 4 times in the last 4 hours. Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

And Barlo keep on searching,and asking for answers. He will respond.”

“hyper, Just have one observation to make and that is... The best person to tell a gay joke to is a gay person! They appreciate when straights acknowledge that they are homosexual and still elect to converse with them. Too many of us "straights" refuse to have anything to do with them, like homosexuality is contagious or something. They recognise too that some folks find their lifestyles repugnant.”

“I doubt many gay folks like gay jokes, but a few may. Some blacks may like black jokes from a white guy too but i wouldnt advise coming to Detroit to test out your theory.”

“I assumed to tell a gay person a gay joke, I would need to know that he was gay. That is to assume that I know this person, either through the workplace, neighborhood etc. Certainly I wouldn't advise telling any joke to a person whose humor I could not judge. I wouldn't advise coming to Philly to tell a straight guy who you don't know, a gay joke. He might get the wrong impression! LOL”

“Hey, start a joke squabbling thread.”

“I'm sure it depends partly on the gay person and the gay joke.”

“fly guy, I posted references to both of Mutt's quotes, or at least I tried to. When I read each entire quote I still get the impression that they were written by two different people.

It is true that the man made theme is consistant, but essentially they contradict. Well at least that is my Provencial interpretation.”

“You're from Provence? Nice--very nice! ;-)”

“Tehipite, I didn't think anyone would catch the sarcasm if I corrected, Mutt's spelling. Apparently no one got it anyway.”

“That is hard one, Fly and since I have no bible here at home to cheat with, there creates an incentive to steal one the next time I'm on the road. HEHEHE!!!

I do see quite a few, mark, luke, kings, acts, revelations, james, ruth, numbers, amos?, esther?, job, judges, lamentations, hebrews, peter. My eyes gave up.”

“That is hard one, Fly and since I have no bible here at home to cheat with, there creates an incentive to steal one the next time I'm on the road. HEHEHE!!!

I do see quite a few, mark, luke, kings, acts, revelations, james, ruth, numbers, amos?, esther?, job, judges, lamentations, hebrews, peter. My eyes gave up.”

“Missed the original misspelling. Oh well. I trust you caught the pun in my post.”

“Wouldn't even virtually prove yer point WC.

Oh ye of little proof.”

“By my Christian upbringing, God is beyond Man's definition and comprehension. How easily the name gets bantered about.
This is probably not the forum in which to argue spirituality, but it does seem that we should try to counter each others' points of contention and not take jabs at them, personally.
Maybe you can't argue religion. It's like arguing which flavor of ice cream is best. People choose religions for their own reasons.
However, I do believe that you can argue/discuss spirituality and ethics.”

“babel, babel, babel...whose got the MellowYelloJello??”

“amen, bonzai. amen.”

“Hey, if you can't stand the squabbling, get out of the church.”

“I'll pass along a poem from a favorite obscure writer:

Jehovah & The Latter Days

I can always tell when
they're coming.

Neighborhood dogs
going nuts. Then they

bang on our door
ask me if I'm concerned

with spiritual things.
Yes, I say, the

neighborhood dogs
are going nuts.

--- Mary Kinnunen
(North Coast Review, Spring, 1997)”

“"People are divided into two groups - the righteous and the unrighteous - and the righteous do the dividing."
- Lord Cohen”

“I find this an interesting, though somewhat perplexing thread. Lot?s of point / counterpoint with Mutt usually taking the ?first strike? approach and most of the rest of us responding. We can argue until the end and probably still have more we can think of to argue about. So lots of bluster and we are back where we started.

Personally, religion or spirituality or whatever you want to call it, is more a search to find THE ANSWER. What is truth? Why am I here? How did the universe get here? Well, I?ve ventured this far. Here is my journey?

I recall being dropped off on Sunday mornings to attend Sunday school while my parents did?who knows what. And while as a young child found the Bible full of interesting stories, they were just that and in time I grew tired of them.

In my teens I was enthralled in science and the search for the ultimate answers to the origins of the universe, the origins of life. My dad engaged in dialogue with me. I learned he was an atheist. This really got me thinking. By the time I graduated High School I was pretty much convinced that science and the scientific method would in time (though maybe a long one provide the answers). And the answer didn?t require a God or any type of Supreme Being. I considered myself an atheist. And that was that.

I would debate friends and sometimes duck when I a particular friend came around because he was pushy when it came to religion. I didn?t believe it (or maybe it was ?didn?t want to believe it?) so I didn?t want to be bothered with things like eternal damnation. Besides I was learning the answers. The universe::the big bang. Life::primordial soup. Evolution::successful random mutation. All of it could occur, simply by chance. Just wait long enough.

Fast forward a couple years and in studying statistical thermodynamics (of all things to study) my perfect little world with all it ?no God needed? answers encountered a difficulty. While statistically speaking all these wonderful things can happen by chance if you wait long enough, if time begins with the start of the universe we haven?t waited long enough yet for all this stuff to just happen. Hmmm. Then how?

That summer on a weeklong hike in the Sierra I am standing atop Junction Pass. Simply awed at what I see. Soaking it all in, the questions began to get clearer -- random chance, then it might happen once. But the beauty I saw was all around me. Thousands upon thousands of ?once in the lifetime of the universe occurrences? everywhere I looked. Dusk time alpenglow. Not just one night (maybe I lucked out), but every night. Not just one life form, but many. It became clear. Chance doesn?t cut it. Created by committee doesn?t cut it. In my quest for the answers, my quest to know, and by learning and observing to find out. It was clear. Something, someone must be at the center of it all. Something I don?t know about. Something I don?t understand. I now believe in one God. And he / she / it set all of this in motion. And perhaps sculpted the very peaks I looked upon with his ?hands?.

This revelation didn?t change my desire for scientific understanding, but added a new search: to learn about and understand God. One God. One God. The three monotheistic religions of the world ALL claim to serve the one God. And to my surprise I learned by studying these religions that they not only served the One God, they all served the SAME GOD, though revelation came differently to each. But only one book testifies to this. The book we refer to as Genesis. My search narrowed.

My search brought me to a study of the Bible and many more questions. Historically, archeologically, the Old Testament Bible is a remarkable text. Search long enough and things are discovered that corroborate it. Sure, much historical evidence is lost. But so many guideposts along the way still remain. Physically it happened. It is documented and in many cases proven. Is the supernatural just a fairy tale, or does God really intervene?

The prophets foretell the future. Much has come to pass. But there is this sticking point ? much prophecy points to a man the Jews call Messiah. Christians claim Jesus the Christ the unrecognized Messiah. How do I know? Where can I turn. People I work with know of my search. They want to convert me or something and I resist. I read, and study, and pray. And one day, a woman at work invites me to her church. I am curious because she doesn?t push, she just invites. Tells me to come and see for myself. She tells me this church is different than any I had ever been to before.

I decide to go. What harm can come of it. Me who lunched with the Moonies at Berkeley, chanted with the Hari Krishna at their West Los Angeles headquarters, who spent the night in a bathroom at Gaviota State Beach in California listening to a ?leader? to leave all and join the several hundred ?Christian gypsies? wandering the California coast. What harm can come of it? If it is nothing, I conclude, then nothing.

I drive myself to church. Shake hands with a few greeters at the door, so glad to see me. I enter and experience a presence I had never felt before. There simply was power inside this building and am reminded of the Bible telling how the presence of God filled the temple built by Solomon. Everything about me and within me told me I was experiencing the same presence. Almost intolerable, way too revealing, but too awesome, too inspiring to leave. I took a seat and listened to the pastor. He did nothing, but read the Bible and try to explain what it meant. Not one explanation, not two, but from nearly any angle apologist, skeptical whatever. He tore it down and put it back together. And simply challenged people to study for themselves, they shouldn?t just believe him. I had to go back.

In this manner I came to agree with the account by John. ?Before anything else existed, there was The Word, with God.? Christ is my Lord and Savior, pushing 22 years now. I am not a saint. I?ve seen churches and pastors and ?men of God? self-destruct. Still the words ring. Study for yourself. Ask for yourself. And my faith in Christ strengthens with each passing day.

There is but one source. There is but one truth. Search for it. Really search for it. Don?t take another?s word for it. Found out for yourself. I think you?ll agree.”

“good god that was a long post”

“Yes it was long, but it was the kind of answer I was looking for when I ask my question 47 posts ago. Thanks Stevet!”

“I appreciate your search and convictions, Stevet. My search led me to a different realization.
However, I have decided to refrain from saying just what that realization is, because; 1.It doesn't really matter, in the grand scheme of things. 2. It's like speaking in different languages. We don't seem to be getting any closer to one another.
Religion is only the beginning place. We need to realize, ourselves, that which Christ/ Buddha realized.
Oops, I've gone too far.”

“null”

“onodrim-Now THAT was a good post. I haven't been in here in awhile and like always I pick the strangest posts to read. AND I can't resist.

One thing I do know, the God I worship would read this and laugh. He (and I use the word He only as a figure of speech and put no gender on God)must surely have a sense of humor just by looking at all of creation. What a great thing that all of us are so different and full of LIFE even if we differ in the way we live those lives. I can be on the trail (remember the trails?) for mere minutes and look around and know that there is something far bigger than myself responsible for this place. I draw in that first breath as I start up the trail and know that I have met God and will see God many more times along the trip in everything around me. God is here folks, whatever your name for God is, just take a breath, look at your child or yep, even Sarabelle and you'll know it.”

“stevet: Your representation of science-based explanations as "random chance" is misleading. The fact that science establishes patterns, some to the point of laws, such as the laws of physics, would indicate that it is not a matter of chance that things turned out the way they did. That you see a thousand wonderful mountains stretching out does not "prove" there is a god. It does substantiate that geology works in a certain way, a way that is not random nor a matter of chance. What set this universe into motion may be up to debate, but I've listened to Nobel winners in a couple disciplines talk about this, including men who believe in God, and "random chance" is not part of the discussion.”