Religious squabbling thread

“pekka: What I laid out barely scratches the surface. What you see is there is where I was when I came to realize God exists (over twenty years ago). My thinking, my knowledge has evolved (and hopefully grown) in that time. And I while I agree that there are patterns (geology works in a certain way, the laws of physics, etc.) science tends to discover the underlying patterns and test them repeatedly, modifying the explanation as needed. Another question is "what established or establishes the patterns?" and it is to this question (and others will disagree with me) I conclude they just can't happen, they had to be established. And that leaves me with God.”

“stevet sounds like the antimutt. No offence to either intended.”

“Stevet very well said.”

“More than 20 years ago, I thought there might be only one God. My only problems with God had to do with people who believed that some experience or some book they read told them the truth about this one God. The only onther possibilities were was no God, or that God was more diffuse.

But through comptemplation of life, a willingness to celebrate and embrace and to observe my own habits of thought and how they distorted my perceptions I came to embrace the Paganism of clasical antiquity (one of this new age stuff for me) and realized how our failure to see the multiplicity and variety of divinity led us astray.

For example, those who do not appreciate the divinity of Eros tend to become anti-sex, or to fail to appreciate the subsersive and divinve nature of eros in all its many splendors.. others see only sexual impulses and not something divine and sacred and give themselves over to unenlighted gratifaction of degraded sexuality.

Eros I invoke and adore thee, Athena Goddess of wisodom I invoke and adore thee. Dionnysus God of dance and wine and revelry, I acknowledge your divinity and pledge to enthusiastically join in the free untamed celebration of your presence at least once before the Spring equinox.

(Hail Eris, the victorious, and the 22 other divine beings each of whom are known by many names!)”

“And bless all the Gods and Godesses heroe, saviours and entertainers that each and every one of you praise, worship, love, adore or otherwise hold close to your heart.”

“Stevet, even though I'm a devisive person when it comes to religion, I can appreciate and respect the individual approach you took to finding your spirituality. Though you've ended up a Christian, the fact that you searched around and considered many points of view is a much better approach and makes much more sense to me than blindly sticking with the spirituality your parents taught you, or the religion of your geographic area, or the philosophy of your culture. You also chose wisely not to limit your spiritual knowledge to a purely scientific perspective.

Speaking in the broadest sense, it seems to me that religion and science both are incomplete explanations of reality and only to a small extent accurately parallel the different dimensions of "truth". With religion, I think people truly do find a measure of insight into human behavior, and a personal connection with a higher power could be considered a measure of this. And with science, observations of some phenomena have been so consistent over time, that we can assume we've created some accurate laws that describe the real physical universe. Technology is a good tool to guage just how accurately our scientific models reflect the way the real world works. But with both, there's so much that hasn't yet been explained, and neither seems likely to ever provide a complete picture in itself. So rather than perceiving either path as an end in itself, it makes more sense to divorce yourself from any one explanation and form an individualized perspective based on what you feel is true from every perspective you can learn about. Just accept the fact that you cannot possibly know the full truth, that you cannot possibly know for sure your personal path is the correct path, and that no system of belief - scientific, philosophical, or religious - is a complete explanation. And then open your mind to everything that is out there. For example, my perspective of the world grew out of personal exploration of both science and religion, as well as pursuing a sticty personal search for achieving a transendent connection with a higher power. So far, I've learned much more through science and transcendendency than I have through western religion, but then I'm sure everyone who's bothered reading my posts knows I'm a bit biased and really only have an academic understanding of organized religions. It's just that the elementary explanations of life that western religions provide (like heaven and hell, judgemental gods, and salvation) seem like a childish waste of time, and it's hard to see where intense focus on it would pay off. Plus, christianity has been such a smothering experience that I only feel a desire to escape from it, not focus on it. Anyway, with all I've learned, I've arrived at my own perspective on life that's really only relavent to myself. There's still so much more I want to understand, that I've long since come to the realization I never will understand the full nature of life. But I've also long felt comfortable with that, so I don't fear what I don't know. Moreover, I don't feel any desire at all to create or believe in a fiction (e.g. a holy book) to explain what I don't understand . I'm slowly traveling down my own path of incomplete understanding, but my perspective keeps expanding, and that's good enough for me.

So bravo to anyone with the guts to seriously question their faith and open themselves to the broad range of human perspectives. Like stevet, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll end up abandoning your original belief system; instead you'll probably be more secure and knowledgable in what you believe. Or something like that.”

“Though my services havent been summoned I feel duty-bound to do some "official scorekeeping".

Mutt, I have been a scorekeeper for years, my work here is fairly new. I am AMAZED at your level of decency and reason ( your most recent post). You have not shouted down,insulted or tried to intellectually beat anyone down. You did not make assumptions or allow your own bias cloud your vision as you usually do, and you even showed hubris with your admission of having only "an academic understanding of western religions". You were complimentary and borderline congenial. You have shown great progress . 10 points!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

“See what wonderful things can happen when the right deities are invoked and acknowledged.”

“Mutt-Well said. Just one thing. Don't assume that everyone who believes there is a God and may also believe in the basis of what Jesus taught, believes the "Book" to be infallible. Written by folks just like us each writer sees the world differently and to assume that the book is absolutely correct is an insult to the brains we've all been gifted with. It is a book full of stories about lessons we can learn from, but those lessons (at least from my perspective)all lead to community with each other and creation. To use the Bible or any other "holy" book as a tool to demean and control others is appauling. May you always be filled with questions and NEVER be a follower.”

“Now, we are dialoguing. (IMHO)
A spiritual teacher once wrote, "There is neither one God nor many Gods. There is only God."
What is to be realized, is that we are not separate or can we be separated from the Unknowable Divine Mystery that is Reality Itself. To live on the basis of believing that God is somehow "out there" is a good definition of hell. (Again, IMHO)
Religion blessed me with a strong sense of morality that serves me to this day. It seems to me, though, that we are being directed to grow beyond the need for a Parent God.
This does not have to be contradictory to religion. Religion has the possibilty of being a great foundation for further exploration.
I could go on, but I'll spare you for now.”

“Dunadan comes in with a well timed comment, and a quote that moves us forward in a dialectic progression.

Lets look at the quote for a moment: "There is neither one God nor many Gods. There is only God."

This is a notion that crops up often: God is neither one nor many. Similarly, there is the idea that God is both one and many.

But "God" is a singular noun. The word carries the idea of one whole entity. "Elohim," one of Hebrew terms used to refer to God is a plural noun.

Every way we can refer to or represent our understanding of "deity," "the sacred," "divinity," carries limitations, meanings and implications. I've wondered if this is part of the lesson of idolatory: there is no true image of deity.

Perhaps religious squabbling is often more about ways of naming, understanding and adhering traditions regarding the same reality which is spoken of and understood in a great variety of ways.

Then again, maybe not.

Or maybe I just couldn't find the right way of saying it.”

“Here is an interesting spin on the Spirtuality/Religion question. A good friend of mine is in some real trouble. He is in a diabetic coma since Feb 19th. He was laid off his job of 23 years just before Christmas. Since he is unavailable for work he gets no unemployment. He has no income at all.

Now should I appeal for donations from TT members or the local Churches? Or both? Which group do you think will donate the most money?”

“I have a sort of an answer for you bacpac.

As most of you know Joy and I had a baby 5.5 wks ago. We have been members of our church for 5 wks. I have worked at my present Job nearly 7 years. Folks from my church brought us dinner each day for a week, we received countless calls,visits and soooo many gifts(from church friends) it was incredible. From my co-workers we received 2 cards and two gifts (I work with 30 or so people). My co-workers said congrats then in the same breath said "kiss sex,fun,bping,freedom etc etc goodbye" very encouraging. Hopefully that helps bacpac.”

“I hear ya hyper, I guess what my buddy really needs is our prayers. I can take care of his bills, but I can't heal him.”

“"...NEVER be a follower."
Huh?!
Whaddafuh's so wrong about following?

I realize that MANY people that I know are MUCH MORE knowledgable than I about MANY MANY things. We should, indeed, have "heros" to which we can look up to, and (by all means!) follow their examples.

"No man is an island"
~Jebus H. Cripes”

“What I take "...Never be a follower" to mean is that you should think for yourself.

You can still follow examples and have heros. Never be a blind follower may.”

“Sorry to hear about your friend, bacpac. It is so tough to stand by and feel helpless with something like that. My father was in a coma last August and I remember how it was.

Thoughts and blessings to you and your friend. It's really all up to him now...”

“Just checking in at the close of the weekend, and wow! some cool dialogue. It's pretty clear we all don't agree on this thing called religion, and such, but it is cool that we can broach the topic with civility.

bacpac--sounds like a tough situation. Your friend, and you, in my prayers.”

“gojo-Learning from people who have much to offer differs greatly from following blindly. Perhaps I should have included the word Blindly. We all learn from others, but hopefully we do not follow the lead of every person considered great. Else we might all look like Dennis Rodman and act like Jerry Fallwell.”

“Converted42, that is one weird image you provided. You could help Kevin Smith cast if he makes "Dogma 2."”

“Jerry Rodman or Dennis Falwell. Either way, a scary thought.

Still contemplating your post Mutt. I agree that finding one's way makes more sense than following either "science" or "religion" as the end all. Both can be dogmatic, and neither has a wrap on the truth. Religion is humanity's poor attempt to implement a particular "truth". It has been used to control and coerce. Given license to kill. Given the fallability and nature of man the Crusades are no surprise nor is today's Islamic fundamentalism. The oppression of religion, or religious thought is as well documented as the oppression that still drives evolution as true. Both interpretations are incomplete, incorrect and equally dogmatic.

So trying to find one's way is really the only path that seems to fit. Which leads to another question, whether to look inward into self, or beyond self. My experience says both (other thoughts on this?)

Looking beyond me I try to understand God as revealed in the Bible. Internally I try to understand myself and align myself to God as my understanding increases. This I find not oppressive, but liberating. The grace and forgiveness of the cross unite one with God. Am I on the right path? I believe so, yet others follow other paths. I don't feel quite right in judging, though am concerned as Christ boldly proclaimed "I am the Way". And if he is God as I believe, then he is right and all other ways lead not to truth, but astray.

Still much is unavailable to my, to our understanding. We are on our individual journeys that will lead us into some surprising insight about ourselves and the nature of God. But it may very well be that we won't get to that place of ultimate understanding until the end of time.

At the very least I'll have much to discuss when I see God face to face.”

“Dogma would be hard to top with a Dogma2. Twisted, but said alot. Now I have single handedly offended all the conservatives in the room.”

“I am so impressed by some of the posts on this thread. I jest above, but appreciate the posts and the courage it takes to express beliefs when they may or may not be accepted or considered. I do not "argue" my religious beliefs, but I am always open to learn from someone else (yes learn, not follow blindly) and there is much to be learned from many of the words here. Food for thought and questions fuel the heart and the mind and keep my faith alive. Althought, I must say I'd rather discuss all this on top of a hill somewhere!!”

“Did anyone catch any of the Cosmos replays the other night? Carl Sagan had such a way of describing how small we are.
This is one of my main problems with religion.
If we are so important to the gods, why is the universe so large?
It is so large that nothing we do as individuals are as a species will have a permanent effect.
In 1 billion years (the blink of a cosmic eye) the sun will be too hot for our planet.
If we are still around and have made it to other planets by then, we have about 3 billion years until our galaxy collides with our neighboring galaxy. The precise effect of this is hard to say but if we live through that, in the end it still doesn't matter because as the universe continues to expand forever, all the stars will eventually go cold and nothing will be able to survive that.
Bummer.”

“And I never think about this crap when I'm on the top of a hill. When I'm in the wilderness I try to just play my part in that which is, and leave it at that.”

“barlo-the hope is that by the time we all get to the top all the "hot air" is out of us and we would only have the energy left to, as you say, play our part in that which is.”

“Word”

“Turin shroud 'older than thought'

The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.

A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.

The author dismisses 1988 carbon-14 dating tests which concluded that the linen sheet was a medieval fake.

The shroud, which bears the faint image of a blood-covered man, is believed by some to be Christ's burial cloth.

Raymond Rogers says his research and chemical tests show the material used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage.

This was responsible for an invalid date being assigned to the original shroud cloth, he argues.

"The radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud relic," said Mr Rogers, who is a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, US.

Fire damage

He says he was originally dubious of untested claims that the 1988 sample was taken from a re-weave.

"It was embarrassing to have to agree with them," Mr Rogers told the BBC News website.

The 4m-long linen sheet was damaged in several fires since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a church blaze in 1532.

It is said to have been restored by nuns who patched the holes and stitched the shroud to a reinforcing material known as the Holland cloth.

"[The radiocarbon sample] has obvious painting medium, a dye and a mordant that doesn't show anywhere else," Mr Rogers explained.

<snip>”

“Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies

ATLANTA — Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be intolerant.

Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation.

Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to religious expression. So she's demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its tolerance policy.

With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality, anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their membership to all.

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian."

In that spirit, the Christian Legal Society, an association of judges and lawyers, has formed a national group to challenge tolerance policies in federal court. Several nonprofit law firms — backed by major ministries such as Focus on the Family and Campus Crusade for Christ — already take on such cases for free.

The legal argument is straightforward: Policies intended to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination end up discriminating against conservative Christians. Evangelicals have been suspended for wearing anti-gay T-shirts to high school, fired for denouncing Gay Pride Month at work, reprimanded for refusing to attend diversity training. When they protest tolerance codes, they're labeled intolerant.

A recent survey by the Anti-Defamation League found that 64% of American adults — including 80% of evangelical Christians — agreed with the statement "Religion is under attack in this country."

"The message is, you're free to worship as you like, but don't you dare talk about it outside the four walls of your church," said Stephen Crampton, chief counsel for the American Family Assn. Center for Law and Policy, which represents Christians who feel harassed.

Critics dismiss such talk as a right-wing fundraising ploy. "They're trying to develop a persecution complex," said Jeremy Gunn, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.

Others fear the banner of religious liberty could be used to justify all manner of harassment.

"What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans shouldn't mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn't work?" asked Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.

Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

By equating homosexuality with race, Baylor said, tolerance policies put conservative evangelicals in the same category as racists. He predicts the government will one day revoke the tax-exempt status of churches that preach homosexuality is sinful or that refuse to hire gays and lesbians.

"Think how marginalized racists are," said Baylor, who directs the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "If we don't address this now, it will only get worse."

Christians are fighting back in a case involving Every Nation Campus Ministries at California State University. Student members of the ministry on the Long Beach and San Diego campuses say their mission is to model a virtuous lifestyle for their peers. They will not accept as members gays, lesbians or anyone who considers homosexuality "a natural part of God's created order."

Legal analysts agree that the ministry, as a private organization, has every right to exclude gays; the Supreme Court affirmed that principle in a case involving the Boy Scouts in 2000. At issue is whether the university must grant official recognition to a student group that discriminates.

The students say denying them recognition — and its attendant benefits, such as funding — violates their free-speech rights and discriminates against their conservative theology. Christian groups at public colleges in other states have sued using similar arguments. Several of those lawsuits were settled out of court, with the groups prevailing.

In California, however, the university may have a strong defense in court. The California Supreme Court recently ruled that the city of Berkeley was justified in denying subsidies to the Boy Scouts because of that group's exclusionary policies. Eddie L. Washington, the lawyer representing Cal State, argues the same standard should apply to the university.

"We're certainly not going to fund discrimination," Washington said.

As they step up their legal campaign, conservative Christians face uncertain prospects. The 1st Amendment guarantees Americans "free exercise" of religion. In practice, though, the ground rules shift depending on the situation.

In a 2004 case, for instance, an AT&T Broadband employee won the right to express his religious convictions by refusing to sign a pledge to "respect and value the differences among us." As long as the employee wasn't harassing co-workers, the company had to make accommodations for his faith, a federal judge in Colorado ruled.

That same year, however, a federal judge in Idaho ruled that Hewlett-Packard Co. was justified in firing an employee who posted Bible verses condemning homosexuality on his cubicle. The verses, clearly visible from the hall, harassed gay employees and made it difficult for the company to meet its goal of attracting a diverse workforce, the judge ruled.

In the public schools, an Ohio middle school student last year won the right to wear a T-shirt that proclaimed: "Homosexuality is a sin! Islam is a lie! Abortion is murder!" But a teen-ager in Kentucky lost in federal court when he tried to exempt himself from a school program on gay tolerance on the grounds that it violated his religious beliefs.

In their lawsuit against Georgia Tech, Malhotra and her co-plaintiff, a devout Jewish student named Orit Sklar, request unspecified damages. But they say their main goal is to force the university to be more tolerant of religious viewpoints. The lawsuit was filed by the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit law firm that focuses on religious liberty cases.

Malhotra said she had been reprimanded by college deans several times in the last few years for expressing conservative religious and political views. When she protested a campus production of "The Vagina Monologues" with a display condemning feminism, the administration asked her to paint over part of it.

She caused another stir with a letter to the gay activists who organized an event known as Coming Out Week in the fall of 2004. Malhotra sent the letter on behalf of the Georgia Tech College Republicans, which she chairs; she said several members of the executive board helped write it.

The letter referred to the campus gay rights group Pride Alliance as a "sex club … that can't even manage to be tasteful." It went on to say that it was "ludicrous" for Georgia Tech to help fund the Pride Alliance.

The letter berated students who come out publicly as gay, saying they subject others on campus to "a constant barrage of homosexuality."

"If gays want to be tolerated, they should knock off the political propaganda," the letter said.

The student activist who received the letter, Felix Hu, described it as "rude, unfair, presumptuous" — and disturbing enough that Pride Alliance forwarded it to a college administrator. Soon after, Malhotra said, she was called in to a dean's office. Students can be expelled for intolerant speech, but she said she was only reprimanded.

Still, she said, the incident has left her afraid to speak freely. She's even reluctant to aggressively advertise the campus lectures she arranges on living by the Bible. "Whenever I've spoken out against a certain lifestyle, the first thing I'm told is 'You're being intolerant, you're being negative, you're creating a hostile campus environment,' " Malhotra said.

A Georgia Tech spokeswoman would not comment on the lawsuit or on Malhotra's disciplinary record, but she said the university encouraged students to debate freely, "as long as they're not promoting violence or harassing anyone."

The open question is what constitutes harassment, what's a sincere expression of faith — and what to do when they overlap.

"There really is confusion out there," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center, which is affiliated with Vanderbilt University. "Finding common ground sounds good. But the reality is, a lot of people on all sides have a stake in the fight."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-christians10apr10,0,1243330,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines”

“im gonna start a religion. our one and only dogma is that christians are stupid arseholes. anyone who says otherwise is restricting my religious freedom and i'll sue them.”

“Crash how can you say that Christians are aresholes?Do you know them all personally?If most people would just mind their own business the world would be a better place for example I am a Christian< I don't agree with homosexuality BUT I don't bother or harrass any of them I am even friends with a few.In my view you can believe whatever you want and you shouldn't push your views on anyone else.Some folks just need attention and these issues and topics are how they get it!”

“look up "satire" "parody" and "sarcasm" on your favorite dictionary”

“see also "trolling" and "baiting"”

“Crap now you're calling me stupid? LOL!”

“no, im calling you "mr-incapable-of-recognizing-obvious-parody/satire/sarcasm/trolling/baiting"”

“LOL. I've been there too Spam, trying to be reasonable and responding seriously to something nutty - only to realize, too late, that the post was being played for laughs.
last edited: 4/10/06 8:01:16 PM”

“Hey Crash - how about starting an organization that insists that to be Christian is to be intolerant, bigoted and to thrive on derogation of others?
Oh wait a second Scarborough and other self-described Christians in that article have already done that.”

“theres nothing funny about the christofascist climate in this country

:-)”

“Okay...so where's that smoking dope thread at. I think I might fit in over there!”

“Yes there is!




At one psych hospital I worked at, we had a patient who had run a stranger down with his car because he thought the guy was "working with the Blue Meanies and Adolf Hitler to break [his] psychic link with Dolly Parton." This guys delusions had great comic value - but the things he did in the real world to because of what happened in his imaginary world were dangerous indeed.)”

“Oops, their server's down.”

“Works for me. Heathens are blocked.”

“Works for me.”

“Now it's working.”

“it's funny how they call Buddhism a religion”

“5. This last tip is absolutely the most important thing you can do this holiday season to survive the War on Christmas: whine and cry about it day and night. #&%!$ and moan to your friends, family and coworkers. If you have your own cable news show, talk about how offended you are, and how the liberals have gone too far this time, and how political correctness is sending America down a slippery slope toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Maoism. For god’s sake, write letters to the editor of your local paper!”

“MarkO, the anti-Christian Bigot.”

“a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. (but not always) when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

buddhism fits that”