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Rise up and fight backView MessagesRise up and fight back “Cut and paste the following: http://www.sierraclub.com/planet/200103/bush.asp Do you want roads or oil rigs in the backcountry?” 3:50:01 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Thanks for the post Thinair. It's inevitavable somebody will post here bashing this idea....I still can't figure out why anyone who's into the sport would even consider supporting Bush on this issue.” 3:54:32 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Not agreeing with Bush's ideas on the environment doesn't mean you have to like Clinton. I thought Bush would be better than this.” 3:54:34 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I don't know how anybody that voted for Bush couldn't see this coming. What else can you expect from a republican oil man.” 4:07:13 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I just hear so much support for Bush on this board, but no one seems to care about what he would allow to happen in these wild places. He even wants to relax Clean Air Laws. What a step backwards!” 4:12:36 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I don't see how anyone who supported Bush/Nader could be into backpacking.” 4:14:08 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I could find the article but assume we are talking Alaska here. 3 points. 1. The majority of Alaskans (according to a NPR poll) are in favor of new drlling including thier DEMOCRATIC governor. 2. New wells will be drilled somewhere on earth to meet demand. In the US we have the strictist regulation on new drlling. Plus we also have the highest paid workers at these sites and our workplace safety rules are better than any other areas that are oil rich. Azerbijian is the next oil "mecca" we will impact the environment much less by drilling here than them drlling there. 3. Do you drive a car?Or own lots of stuff made from plastic (like your computer)? Dont blame others for the worlds woes. The largest source of ground water poluttion is not chemical dumping by large companies its caused by average schmucks dumping lawn fertilzer all over their yards. "everyone wants to save the world but nobody wants to help mom do the dishes" PJ O'Rourke.” 4:20:17 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I meant to begin by sayin "could NOT"...” 4:20:59 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Before I criticize Bush?s policies I need details on each one. I am sure that I will find some I don?t like. BUT, to many people think that any action that has anything at all to do with the environment that comes from Bush will be bad. That is plain and simple an unfair assumption. Face up to it. Our society and economy is dependant on resource extraction (read ?raping the environment?). If we are to decide to lock ourselves out of access to some of those resources we will be doing without some of our luxuries. Which ones are you ready to give up. If you are ready to give them up, do it now and reduce the demand for them and subsequently the demand for the extraction of those resources. Some people want to save the environment by taking things away from others that they themselves would not give up. It is sort of like being lectured on the ill effects on animals of us eating meat by someone wearing a leather coat. If you want to bash Bush on the environment go for it. But if you want to sound sincere also tell use what you have given up to protect the environment. If you haven?t done anything it appears that are an imitation environmentalist. Me I am forgoing that new Lexus (I couldn?t afford one anyway, not even close). It is the ?think globally, act locally? thing. Remember, ?actions speak louder than words?. (.)(.) | ) . ( ( Y ) 4:26:07 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “It's time to look into other types of available energy that is available. Also the Alaskans would be in favor do to the financial impact they would have in their economy. Everyone wants $$$$ and only a few want to try to change the dependancy on oil. Have you heard of the Honda Insight or Hydrogen fuel Cell cars???” 4:29:24 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Gore talked about trying to shift out of oil into other available renewables. Bush just wants to drill for more. :(” 4:31:18 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Some petroleum products we all use ...sandwhich bags,soda bottles,candy wrappers,grocery bags, prepacked food wrappers, computers and accessories,steroes,TV remotes, shoes,car tires, roofing shingles, the plastic around ALL electrical wiring, clothing materials, disposable razors,shampoo bottles,condiment bottles, our automobile interiors, watches, rubber bands,condoms, the rubber seal in a beer cap, paint, chemical cleaners....” 4:31:52 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “What do you drive ThinAir?” 4:33:17 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Oil won't be around forever. I'm just afraid that we will tear up too much land scraping up the last of it.” 4:35:31 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “ThinAir do you own one of those $35,000 fuel cell cars? I cant afford one myself. Where does the electricity for and electric cars come from...coal plants and dams and the like.” 4:35:34 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “The price for an Insight compeats with those of comperable gas hogs. Also the items you listed are not the causes of demand, the main cause for oil demand is Power plants and Automobiles. There are alternatives to these things but I don't see Bush even considering them. Why would he, His intrest is oil.” 4:39:35 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I hear ya Stevo. Nader has to be the most destructive environmentalist in the world. I'm sorry, but what a moron.” 4:39:37 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I think hydrogen will be a big part of the answer to filling our needs in the future. Until then lets all just turn of the lights and site in the dark at home. ThinAir, what do you drive? Is you home air conditioned?” 4:40:36 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Prices for hydrogen fuel cell cars will drop if endorced by public demand and mass production. All new technology is expensive at it's outset, but clearly gets cheaper as more competition arives. I saw the Insight for $20,000 when it came out and just a week ago I saw it advertised at a dealer for $18,000 proof enough” 4:42:54 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “"OFF & SIT" (sorry)” 4:44:24 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “thin air, how fu&king stupid are you? let's ask ONE MORE TIME!!! WHAT THE FU&K DO YOU DRIVE????” 4:45:30 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Bush snorts coke.” 4:46:06 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Thin Air...you would save enough money on gas by buying one of those hybrid cars that you would nearly pay for it. So in the long run it's worh it.” 4:48:13 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I have a dirty old jeep and yeah that sounds bad, but most of my comuting is on a bicycle or walking. The jeep I use to take my canoe to the lake. I am looking at buying an Insight. I get about 25mpg on my jeep in town. It only has a little 4 cylinder. I got it when I was 16 and wasn't concerned for the environment. That has sence changed and due to my finances I chose a bicycle as the alternative. Soon I will buy the insight. If the price of gas goes up because we do not drill in Alaska, I will not mind paying for the gas. I would only ride my bike more.” 4:48:48 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Thin Air, Damn it! What kind of bike do you ride!” 4:52:41 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I'm ignoring you mr dirty mouth” 4:53:00 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “alright! jeeps rule!” 4:55:03 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “I supose you want to know how much air I breath when I walk too? 4$^%^*()(*^&&* it” 4:55:43 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Hydrogen was being use in experimental cars in 1975. We still can?t do it effectively and efficiently. I am glad that they are still working on it. By the way ThinAir, they will let you pay more for the gas now if you want. Next time you fill up the tank pay $4 / gallon just to prove you are a true environmentalist. I ride a bicycle all I can. I do it less now for transportation because I have been hit twice by motorists. Our roads are unfriendly to cyclists. If you want to make a local impact on the world environment get in the faces of your local ask for cyclist friendly roads. Bush is to easy of a target and your criticism will have little effect. You can effect your local politicos much more strongly.” 4:57:19 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Just anouther example of the shift in paradigm our country needs. Make roads more cyclist friendly.” 5:00:27 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “People just pay your taxes and go quietly into the night will ya! The 4 yrs will be over before you know it. Do what you can to better yourself and your enironment. Talk to others about what you have done. Practice what you preach and quit crying about this and that until you are will to go all the way and free yourself for the afflication you have created. I for one will continue to use oil products until it is nolonger feasible or cost prohibitive.” 5:09:24 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Mtn gal ? I have been hit twice too. Motorists are so stupid when it comes to cycles on the road. The Police are too. My wife has been stopped by police three times when she was on her bike. The cops told her she should not be on the road. The state law is clear in Idaho. Bicycles have the same right to the road as cars. I road to work 12 mile each way for 8 years. I did this year round (except when there was ice on the road). If the cops would enforce the traffic laws I would still be riding. There is an example of a local action that seams not to effect the environment but does. Enforcement of traffic laws equals less fuel consumption by me. Oh, I ride a specialized Epic road bike and a titian frame w/ deore xt mountain bike. :)” 5:13:15 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Did you know you can burn piles of old tires as an emergency fire source? Even works well in the rain.” 5:14:57 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Electric cars are a great idea in theory, and here in CA we're seeing more and more parking spaces for them, in parking ramps and such. Of course, California is also experiencing a massive power shortage and is still getting hit by rolling blackouts, so how the f@&* is an electric car any better? We can't even do our damn laundry!” 5:16:27 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “How did Gale Norton get to be Secretary of the Interior?!? The problem is not with Bush, not with Norton, and not with people like thinair who drive. The problem is with our government's peddling to large enviro-destructive companies (oil + timber mostly). Most of the timber we use comes from National Forests. Have you ever been to the Northwest and seen those clear cut areas? They have these ridiculous signs babbling about 'responsible management' of the forests. My a$$! A mono-crop of evergreen forest that's clear-cut every 20 years by the forest service isn't 'responsible.' Bush and his henchmen (henchpeople mtn gal?? LoL) are just the latest manifestation of that. And for the most part, Gore would have been more of the same (BUT at least he wouldn't have drilled in the ANWR).” 5:20:05 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Re sykle! eat kittykitty doo doos! I save truck gas by riding everwhere with some buddy els.” 5:30:51 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Idaho- America worships cars. Our cities are built to accommodate them at the expense of other methods of transportation. ThinAir ? I was not giving and ?example of the shift in paradigm?. I was suggesting that you do something to make a difference, locally. Do you really think Washington DC politicians pay much attention to Email and phone calls from strangers. They don?t unless you are agreeing with what they have already decided to do. Start showing up at city or county meetings on a regulate bases and you will be heard if you present a polished argument. Environmentally the best car is NO car. I am keeping mine for now. The same scary things were said about Reagan but personally I never saw any of it come to pass in my neck of the woods.” 5:33:08 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “The Honda Insight isn't electric stupid!” 5:35:29 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Pisgahforest ? Maybe you know something I don?t but I think most of our wood comes from Canada. A lot of that forest you see cut in the PNW is private land. In Idaho they are shutting down sawmills because of lack of access to Forest Service (our) trees. And a question, if using wood is bad, what shall we build our home from? Really I would like to hear the alternatives.” 5:39:32 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Mtn gal, there are a number of alternative methods for building houses. Unburn clay (adobe), rammed earth, straw bail, old tires & dirt, sandbag and more. These are good if you limit height to one story and to single family dwellings. They do not work for any form of high density housing. They are environmental an improvement only if they used in lieu of conventional wood frame one story single family dwellings. Building codes are also a hindrance to these alternative methods of construction. You will be paying a lot of money to engineers to design the house if you can find an engineer that know anything about the construction method.” 5:54:33 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Mtn Gal, I'm not going to tell you any alternatives until you put some clothes on.” 6:05:10 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Petroleum products make up damn near everything we use. They are Cheap,durable, can be formed into any likeness and easy to make. That is why they are popular. No other product can come close to it. Yes it can be gotten rid of as asbestos has been, but as in the case of asbestos nothing I stress NOTHING has been developed that is/was as fireproof durable and cheap. Buying ANY new car isnt the solution,even at 70mpg. When you buy a new car you encourage new production. You tell Ford to "build more,we'll buy em". This means more mining and drilling to run factories. This also means an over abundance of used vehicles that will fill junkyards. Driving an old (even inefficient) vehicle is better because the resource are already there. Its recycling. There is a thing called supply and demand. When/if people want efficient cars they will be built, Mandating them is assinine. Again its up to us to change our behavior,not bash companies for supplying what we demand.” 7:16:14 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Oh yea, people keep saying that our oil supply is running out, but in fact we still have enough to last beyond your lifetime, especially with modern drilling methods. I agree with hyperpacker. Someone's going to drill, wouldn't you rather it be us?” 7:24:21 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “ThinAir, I agree with you absolutely on this--but I don't know why you expected anything better from a guy like Shrub. Some folks seem to be responding with the argument that you have no standing to object to rape & run government policies unless your own life is environmentally harmless. This is absurd; Bush's environmental policies are destructive in themselves, and their destructive nature doesn't depend on the environmental purity of those who oppose them. Federal environmental policy makes a huge difference, and while local action is also necessary it isn't an either/or situation. mtn girl, you ask about alternatives to using wood--but that's the wrong question. The real question is: what are the alternatives to clearcutting old-growth forest? Cutting old growth is (by definition) not a sustainable practice; what's your objection to mandating sustainable alternatives to it? Clearcutting has proven ill effects of various sorts, e.g., on downstream salmon runs (in other words, there's an economic impact on another industry); what's your objection to mandating more environmentally sound logging practices?” 7:25:18 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “The 'someone's going to drill' argument doesn't work because consumption tends to rise to meet supply. A fairly modest conservation program would make the ANWR oil completely unnecessary; Bush has chosen to ignore conservation in favor of supply, despite the environmental damage that entails.” 7:29:18 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “"Bush is impressing me, except for the fact that his administration has put off talks on Global Warming, saying that they are not convinced that it is caused by burning fossil fuels." -- Thin Air Make up your mind, would ya? Nothing Bush has done impresses me. We all knew electing him would mean an environmental disaster for N. America. So now it's happening. And is anyone surprised?” 7:29:58 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Rosey, I was impressed that he was asking people to look past the Clinton Probes. I guess you didn't get the sarcasim in the rest of the coment. I was simply pointing out that Bush is bad for the environment. I thought that his stance on Global warming was proposterous. He says his staff is "unconvinced" about the role burning fossil fuels has on global warming.” 7:54:18 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Ummm, hate to burst your bubble, but there is no way to know if we are causing Global Warming. In theory we might be, but it is impossible to model atmospheric water vaper accuratly enough to determine any impact. Current estimates neglect this.” 7:58:29 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “Mtn Gal, Do you think that any one of the other candidates would have proposed Drilling in Alaska or many of these other negitives towards the environment. I think not. We have power to change things on a national level by our votes.” 8:05:28 PM 2/27/01 RE: Rise up and fight back “You really believe that death?” 8:06:24 PM 2/27/01
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