Bush's Speech

“So far we got MarkO (who didn't really try), Y2 (who hasn't shown a lie either), and Geobeet (who apparently sides with me that Bush was truthful in everything he said).”
Sarge

Sarge, you're either mad or dyslexic. I cited speeches in which Bubya talked about Sad Sack possessing WMD that could be used against the US and you spin that as truth? So where were the "nukular" weapons and missiles he was talking about? This was just days before the invasion and on the day of invasion. Connect the dots man! He lied! Those WMD did not exist at that point.

No wonder you can't seem to grasp reality!”

“Sarge - I have to say that I think I know a whole lot more about the British Civil Service and the way the British Government works than you do.”

“sarge, your more than welcome. It doesn't matter what anyone says or post. The truth could knock you right upside your head and you would still deny it.

Follow the bouncing ball!
“The Trail Talk Sing Along Song

I’m right, you’re wrong
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!
I rule you drool,
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!
You sling muck, and you suck,
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!
You make me sick, and you’re a dick,
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!

[first page same as the fifth page]

Come on! You know the words! Everybody now!

I’m right, you’re wrong
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!
I rule you drool,
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!
You sling muck, and you suck,
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!
You make me sick, and you’re a dick,
It’s the Trail Talk Sing Along Song!

Nigal, one of the best things you have posted.”

“Y2, duuuude, you simply don't like Bush, which is cool. Did you read the quotes from the Dems and liberals I posted above? And BUSH overhyped the situation? HA HA HA HA! Re-read them (liberal Dem quotes) and see the desperation of the situation they portrayed. They even VOTED for the right to go to war BECAUSE OF WMDs. The issue was NOT whether Saddam had WMDs and was a serious threat, that was a given... the debate was more over whether war was the solution to the WMD problem or not. You don't seem to be understanding that issue, or you are just purposely being partisan because you don't like Bush. Repeat, everyone KNEW Saddam had WMDs and was a threat, but the solution to the problem was where the difference was.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002


Y2, Even John F. Kerry said Saddam was a "GRAVE threat to OUR security", quote un-pickin'-quote.”

“Awwww. So, we're just one giant misinformed family! I feel so much closer to you guys now! hug me!!! :)”

“Buck - my concerns about Bush don't stem from a dislike for him - they come from a strong belief that the policies are wrong.

I tell you what Buck, just labelling anyone who disagrees with what has been done as some sort of irrational Bush hater is complete BS. And I think you know that.”

“Buck - Tenet was in on the game too. The intelligence was being fixed around policy before it reached the politicians ears.”

“What y2 said, the irrational Bush-hater thing is total BS.

I'm gettin' the Nerf Bat!!

Maybe if I can whack Sarge with it he'll stop spinnin'.

Reality-Based Community

A BUZZFLASH READER CONTRIBUTION

Buzz,

This deserves to be seen by all. I pulled it from the NYT article "Without a Doubt: Faith, Certainty and The Presidency of George W. Bush."

In an interview with a senior advisor to Bush:

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

Also, this part, in an interview with Mark McKinnon, senior media advisor to Bush:

He started by challenging me. ''You think he's an idiot, don't you?'' I said, no, I didn't. ''No, you do, all of you do, up and down the West Coast, the East Coast, a few blocks in southern Manhattan called Wall Street. Let me clue you in. We don't care. You see, you're outnumbered 2 to 1 by folks in the big, wide middle of America, busy working people who don't read The New York Times or Washington Post or The L.A. Times. And you know what they like? They like the way he walks and the way he points, the way he exudes confidence. They have faith in him. And when you attack him for his malaprops, his jumbled syntax, it's good for us. Because you know what those folks don't like? They don't like you!'' In this instance, the final ''you,'' of course, meant the entire reality-based community.

I don't know which part makes me angrier. From the best of my recollection, I don't remember the last administration demonstrating, with such apparent relish, an unchecked God complex. These people.....they are nuts.

Also, I'd like to clue Mark McKinnon in on something. I am not from the West or East coast, or Wall Street. And frankly, I don't like the way George walks.”

“Y2, read your comments, we're discussing two different things. I'm not suggesting you're a Bush-hater merely because you disagree with his policies. You can dislike Bush all you want, and disagree with his policies, and think the war is totally wrong, those are legitimate policy differences. Those are HEALTHY legitimate policy differences. But strongly disagreeing with his policies and calling him a liar on the WMD issue are two different things, that's all I'm saying. If Bush was a liar, then most all members of Congress on both aisles are liars as are leaders and intelligence agencies of most of the nations of the world. Bush, just like the liberal Dems, had every reason to believe Saddam had WMDs and was a threat. Disagreeing with his war policy (or all his policies) is different than calling him a "liar on WMDs" when it was universally accepted at the time by most everyone. Do you understand the difference or is this just typical endless "truth doesn't matter because I'm digging in with partisanship" banter?”

“If Bush was a liar, then most all members of Congress on both aisles are liars as are leaders and intelligence agencies of most of the nations of the world.
Buck
11:52:42 AM
6/30/05


"By oft repeating an untruth, men come to believe it themselves." --Thomas Jefferson 1813
last edited: 6/30/05 12:07:44 PM”

“All those members of Congress mentioned are not Commander In Chief.

Regardless of what all those other weenies said, Dubya pulled the trigger.

They may have dared him, but he did the deed.

They are all accountable, but Dubya sits atop the pile.

Members of Congress, to their great shame, went along with this WMD reasoning for war.

Whether they believed it or not, I can't say.

I think they all went along for the same reason members of congress nearly unanimously went along with the Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution in 1964.

They did not want to be labelled as "soft on terrorism/communism".

That could have hurt their re-elect chances.

Times haven't changed in that respect.

Now, as then, defense contractors are big winners.

Families of dead and mangled soldiers are the losers.

Also, the money for this fiasco is coming from our pockets.....we all lose in that regard.”

“Buck - It's not about hating Bush. I think he delivberately misled the American people on the reasons for going to war as it suited his policy goals and those behind these policies.
I think he knew Saddam posed no immediate threat to the US and was well contained by sanctions and no-fly zones and other measures.

I think this misleading of the American people by him and the members of his team on the reasons for going to war makes him a liar.
That's why, it doesn't just stem from some sort of irrational Bush hatred. You need to see past that.”

“Where ya at, Sarge??

Huh??

Huh??

Typical”

“"Buck - Tenet was in on the game too. The intelligence was being fixed around policy before it reached the politicians ears.” - Y2

If Tenet was in on Bush's game, then he was on Clinton's game too! I guess Tenet was a pawn for the Clinton Administration, telling Tenet to say Saddam was a threat and that war was an option if Saddam didn't dismantle his WMD program.

Y2, the following quotes are BB (BEFORE BUSH). Care to explain Tenet and the Clinton Administration's lies to the American people? Or is Bush so powerful and manipulative that even Clinton was under his thumb when Bush was merely a Gov. of Texas?

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999”

“Buck - Congress was being sold the same facts fixed around policy as the rest of us. CIA chief was in on the game.”

“Buck - It's not about hating Bush. I think he delivberately misled the American people on the reasons for going to war as it suited his policy goals and those behind these policies.
I think he knew Saddam posed no immediate threat to the US and was well contained by sanctions and no-fly zones and other measures. - Y2

Y2, if you believe the words you just wrote above, then I think you are the one lying to us. Look at the quotes I just provided above, PREVIOUS to Bush ever being President. Please explain the lies of Clinton vs. Bush. Pretty please. I'll even provide a cherry of your choice on top.”

“Buck - Congress was being sold the same facts fixed around policy as the rest of us. CIA chief was in on the game.”

Y2? The same facts? You DO realize those quotes are pre-Bush? I guess Clinton and his cronies had the same lying policy then.”

“Buck - these don't necessarily contradict, as they were said largely in relations to sanctions and enforcing the no-fly zones, which it has been proved was working.

I'm not arguing that unchecked, Saddam didn't pose a threat, but that he was being effectively contained.

I think the issues come when you got from sanctions to war. Your standard of proof needs to be much higher.
The overplayed thier hand on WMDs.”

“MarkO - Lunch. I'll catch up now.”

“They chose to ignore the serious doubts there were on much of the evidence they built their case for war on.”

“Hey, buddy!

I'm off to lunch in ten.

All those quotes from the '90s matter little.

We didn't go to war in the '90s.

It matters more what members of congress said 2002.
last edited: 6/30/05 12:25:37 PM”

“Buck - these don't necessarily contradict, as they were said largely in relations to sanctions and enforcing the no-fly zones, which it has been proved was working.

Y2, the issue is not POLICY differences (no fly zones working, sanctions, etc., vs. war! war! war!). The issue is whether it was legitimately thought there were WMDs or not. Was Bush lying about the WMDs? No, because he legimiately thought they were there, as did Congress and most of the nations of the world. GET IT? If you're arguing no-fly zones working, and sanctions keeping WMDs in check and we didn't need to go to war over the WMD issue, then we're talking apples and oranges and we're going bananas. Fact - it was universally accepted that Saddam had WMDs, before and during the Bush Adm., therefore Bush did not lie. Fact - it was NOT universal on how to best deal with the WMD issue... containment or war. Just because you don't like Bush's policy on dealing with the WMDs does not make him a LIAR whether they existed in the first place.”

“I'm not arguing that unchecked, Saddam didn't pose a threat, but that he was being effectively contained. - Y2

??? I'm cornfused. How could Saddam POSSIBLY ever be a threat to the U.S. if he didn't had WMDs in the first place? And you say you wanted to continue containing Saddam. Contain him from WHAT? All those spit wads?”

“I'm gettin' the Nerf Bat!!!”

“MarkO - If I were you, I wouldn't beg more people on the opposition to come into this. You guys have failed to show Bush lied about anything. ... and all you do is quote another "anonymous" source. LOL

ANONYMOUS SOURCE: (n) The friend of a liberal.”

“Don't mess with me, I have balls of Nerf®.”

“So far MarkO has:

1. A Nerf Bat.
2. An anonymous source.

LOL!

But, no Bush lie.”

“Buck - it's one thing to give your Axis of Evil speech and use evidence on that to put diplomatic pressure on certain nations. It's another to go to war on the back of them.

The administration knew there was some questionable intelligence used in building the case to go to war.
It chose not to pass on the doubts about this evidence to the American people.
It failed to tell the American people there were other reasons for going to war.

To me this constitutes lying to the American people. If you're going to send a nation's young men and women to their deaths, then you need to be open and honest to them. You do not hide some factors and overplay other "justifications" beacuse you know better than the American people. Or at least think you do.”

“Y2 - FORGET ABOUT WMD! Even w/o WMD, we had PLENTY of justification to go to war!

What don't you understand?

The U.N. Resolution was designed so that we would STOP KICKING SADDAM'S BUTT has he invaded Kuwait.”

“Buck - it's one thing to give your Axis of Evil speech and use evidence on that to put diplomatic pressure on certain nations. It's another to go to war on the back of them. - Y2

Again, we are going bananas talking about different fruit. This has NOTHING to do with policy on HOW to deal with WMDs, it's a discussion on whether it was universally believed that Saddam even had WMDs in the FIRST place. And it was pretty much universally accepted by most everyone. I don't know why I have to keep saying this over and over to you?

The administration knew there was some questionable intelligence used in building the case to go to war. - Y2

??? Y2, care to explain this quote from President Bill Clinton's Secretary of State, Madeline Albright, way back in 1998 BEFORE Bush was to become Prez?

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

Y2, here we have Clinton's Secretary of State saying Iraq is THE GREATEST SECURITY THREAT WE FACE!!! Care to explain? Or is this some sort of Bush lie too?

If you think no-fly zones and inspections was the best policy to contain Saddam's WMDs, that is a legit position to take. But that doesn't make Bush a liar because Bush believed Saddam had WMDs and was a threat, just like Clinton did and the current members of Congress from both aisles as well as the most of the rest of the world, including the most esteemed intelligence agencies from various countries. Everyone was shocked not to find WMDs, including Bill Clinton, including Russia's Putin as well as most leaders of powerful nations. I guess that makes Bush a liar. Oh well.”

“flip-flop or double-standard?

George W. Bush in 1999 talking about the Kosovo War:

Bush, 4/99 - "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

Bush, 6/99 - "I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."

George Bush last night talking about the Iraq war:

6/28/05 - "Some contend that we should set a deadline for withdrawing U.S. forces. Let me explain why that would be a serious mistake.”

“He also critisized Clinton in the second Gore/Bush debate by saying that he doesn't believe in nation building. hmmm...”

“WFTV.com - News - Developer Wants To Seize Supreme Court Justice's Home: "WEARE, N.H. -

- Following a Supreme Court ruling giving local governments power to seize private property, a California man has suggested taking over Justice David Souter's New Hampshire farmhouse and turning it into a hotel.


Souter, a longtime Weare resident, joined in the 5-4 court decision allowing governments to seize private property from one owner and turn it over to another if doing so would benefit a community.


In a letter faxed to town officials Tuesday, Logan Darrow Clements said that a hotel on Souter's property would bring the town economic development and tax revenue.

Souter could not be reached for comment.

Charles Meany, Weare's code enforcement officer, said he is taking the matter seriously. So are police, who posted officers outside Souter's home as a precaution Tuesday.”

“Sarge, to me it's a legitimate discussion to differ on reasons for war. A justification of war to you might not be a justification for Y2. I can understand those who differ on Bush's policies on this war, that's cool. I cringe every time I hear another wife or father or mother or husband loses a loved one in this war. Why can't these friggin' Iraqis have the balls to defend their own against insurgents? We delivered their country to them, we got rid of their brutal dictator, we spilled good blood for them, now it's their turn to take it and run with it and don't cower before these stupid terrorists. If you have the passion and the willpower, you don't need so much training. If the same thing happened here in America, I wouldn't need no steenking training to combat these terrorists, there'd throngs of fed-up people continually hunting them down and weeding them out.

My beef is not with those who disagree with the war, but merely spout the liberal-talking points about Bush lying, blah blah blah. THAT'S a load of crock, unless Bush is part of a big worldwide lying conspiracy that includes America's most liberal Congressmen. A simple review of history and current thought plainly reveals this.”

“Buck - I agree. I offered Y2 the reasons why we went to war because he asked me. Then, he kept bringing it up as if it has to do with Bush lying.

Y2 and others seem to think that because they disagree with Bush, that makes him a liar. If they claim that, I'm going to call them on it, and give specifics (although they don't give specifics, just vague references to nothing that back up their points).

We were justified to go to war with Iraq. That is my opinion. Kuwait was justification enough. The raping and mutilations of mothers in front of their children was enough for me. That's my opinion. If somebody doesn't think THAT is justification for war, ... I can't imagine WHAT ON EARTH is.

This is about one thing. Hate for Bush. Hate for goodness. Hate for what is right. If you were evil personified, would you want men to stop the rapings, the torturing, the murders? I wouldn't.”

“That's simly not the case Buck. Since the change of administration there was a push for intelligence on Saddam. That intelligence was shakey at best - the American people were not told this. There's a huge difference between highlighting a possibily threat - and then collecting enough evidence to go to war. This administration altered the evidence to highlight a threat to America to justify a policy of invading Iraq - a policy which had already been decided upon.

There were also other reasons for going to war. I listed some of them earlier. These resons were not expressed to the American people.

This is why he's a liar. As he was not completely honest with the American people.

So you may claim that just makes me a Bush hater - but that's not true. You may differ on what these points mean in the big picture - but one interpretation, looking at the policies, is that he could have been far more honest with the American public - that this war was about far more than the reasons given.

You start a premptive war then you have to have a higher standard of truth.”

“Sarge - all the goodness and what is right crap is just that. It's BS. America went to war in it's own self interest - short-term and long term.”

“Y2 - Out of sight, out of mind, right Y2?

You don't have to watch the evil, so why should YOU have to do anything about it?

Makes me sick to my stomach.”

“And I agree Sarge, he should have been kicked out after the first gulf war. That was the time to do it - with the support of the whole world.”

“Y2 - Support of the world?

So we should only do it if we have support of the world!?!?

That makes me even sicker to my stomach.

It's a popularity contest for you Y2? It's not about what's right, but who likes you?

OMG!

Listen to yourself!”

“Sarge - you just play dumb right?”

“We went to war for OIL. Would the American people scream bloody murder if all their toys stopped running? You betcha. Is that justification for slaughtering tens of thousands of Iraq men, women & children? God, I hope not.

There are hundreds of dictators around the world far more brutal than saddam to his populous. Maybe if they drill & find oil, we’ll help them.

Did BUSH, Cheney & friends make money on this deal? Ah, yup.”

“Yeah Y2, I'm dumb because I get sick to my stomach when lazy selfish #&%!$s like you don't think it's worth it to defend innocent families who are being terrorized by one of the worst mass murderers on the planet. I'm dumb. You're a genius.”

“Y2 - In case you missed it I called you a LAZY SELFISH #&%!$.

I hope you got every word because they're all relevant.”

“Out of sight, out of mind.

Sick #&%!$.”

“Not my problem.

Lazy #&%!$.”

“Screw them.

#&%!$ #&%!$.”

“well, im so glad to see you children are playing nicely. carry on”

““Y2 - In case you missed it I called you a LAZY SELFISH #&%!$.

Now there's a nice Christian response.”