“The solar toilets at Trail Camp, and Outpost Camp are smelly, but usefull.
If you stay at Trail Camp....
CAMP UPWIND!!
I know this thing.

I do the smash and smear thing.
I burn TP.
I also climb well away from any campsites or people to do dirty work.
You would never know I had been there.
The clothing optional "camps" I have been to have one-holers, and they are uni-sex.
You can't use them unless you're an hermaphrodite.”

“i am glad we had this talk....simple...get solo....smash and smear.....makes perfect sense to me. ...
the group pile thing seemed so........unhealthy sort of...and what if you went there and had to wait in line.....like at disney or something.......”

“There is a scientific paper posted on the LNT site that I just read through. It has some interesting things to say. It's not pleasant reading though -- if you read it, I guarantee you will never drink unfiltered stream water again!

To summarize a few of the paper's conclusions (There's some important information here -- PLEASE READ!!):

Catholing is the prefered technique in virtually all backcountry settings. Studies show no particular difference is decomposition or pathogen reduction depending on depth of the hole or type of soil. Mixing with dirt within the cathole does speed decomposition and pathogen reduction. Tests conducted in the Sierra Nevada, at a variety of altitudes and soil types, showed minimal pathogen reduction after more than 1 year of burial. (In other words, after a full cycle of seasons and then some, it's still a sh!t-hole and can be inadvertantly dug up. It is also assumed that paper is not buried, but rather burned or carried out.)

No studies have been conducted to determine how many people use an area before pit toilets or carry-out policies become necessary. It is also suggested that these concerns are more aesthetic (visitors don't want to find old feces) than sanitary, but that is also based on the assumption that all backcountry water is being appropriately filtered or treated.

Surface disposal, i.e. smash and smear, is appropriate only when ALL THREE of the following conditions exist: (1) an extremely dry environment; (2) in extremely remote areas and (3) where there is no soil at all and no possibility of burial. Number (1) is true because dissication (drying) is actually a more effective method of killing pathogens than burying, but it only works in dry environments where the rain won't wash the waste into the watershed. The Sierras do not qualify. Number (2) does not apply to anywhere on this trip -- even Miter Basin is well-travelled enough that smash-and-smear would be pretty disgusting. And (3) means there must be *absolutely* no soil for burial. The studies showed that even rough, pebbly, high alpine soil is as good at feces decomposition and pathogen reduction as any other soil sample. Therefore, if there is the slightest chance of burial, bury it. The llamarama trip locations do not qualify, therefore, under ANY of the three necessary conditions for surface disposal, and therefore surface disposal is not recommended on this trip or virtually anywhere in the Sierra Nevada.

Recommended distance from water courses, lakes, and even dry seasonal water courses remains 200 feet or 60 meters, and recommended cathole depth remains 6-8 inches. Depth is based more on preventing animal dig-ups than on any optimal decomposition depth.

The authors also conclude that the digging of latrines is *almost* always inappropriate, because the high concentration of feces leads to longer decomposition times.

I hope nobody was reading this thread over dinner.”

“Well, it sounds like business as usual!”

“You'll get more disagreements over this topic than almost any other. Getting a large co-ed group to agree on how to Sh!t outdoors quite a conflict.
I have my own ideas on what is the best for different areas and with large groups.
Explorer gave some excellent facts, but truth is most people won't comply to what is best for the environment.
I must addmit I am a "solo sh!ter" I do think before I squat, so I am almost quilt free at the end of a trip.
Lots of info on the subject to research.”

“i assumed there would be some digging and cover up after the smash and smear...
.For me, there is no question about filtering water.....goodness knows the wildlife is not complying with any environmentally sound waste cover ups on any trails or wilderness i have ever been on and in.
historically, being a solo hiker, i just assume that wilderness is so vast that wandering far away from trails and water to dig, evacuate and cover was the thing a human would do, if for anything, to not attract animals to your vicinity.
i have hiked above treeline but never camped where there is no soil or a tree to visit, nor have i ever hiked such densly populated trails ....so this is a subject i have been pondering and i appreciate all these posts.
another thing i have been pondering...is there swimming allowed in the lakes up there in the sierras?”

“OM...... If you have the cajones to jump in the water hen you can swim all you want. There won't be anyone around that will tell you NO. But we may want you to tie a rope around your middle so that we can pull you back in if you go into cardiac arrest. It's cold up there OM! Even in July it gets airish.”

“I can give you a couple of simple facts about digging a hole and burying your sh!t in it in our High Sierra environment.
I spend a lot of time out here.
A LOT!
I can tell you that if you dig yourself a nice little hole, cover it up, eat or burn the tp, and drop a rock over your nice little hole, you can come back five years later, and that pile of yours will still be intact in that hole.
I'll take you on some tours when we get out there and prove it to you.
Behind every tree, and under every rock and small pile of dirt is somebody's sh!t from last year, the year before, the year before, the year before.......
It does not transmogrify into some invisible pile of clean dirt.”

“mel - that's exactly right, and that's why it behooves everyone to find an appropriately remote place for the burial, to bury to a sufficient depth, to stir in some dirt to speed the process, and to not bury the paper too!

om - "I assumed there would be some digging and cover up after the smash and smear..." -- actually the right order would be dig, then do, then smash and smear (within the cathole), then cover.

As for swimming, it's perfectly legal, and perfectly safe as long as you don't gulp down mouthfuls of water or (as sol pointed out) have a heart attack when you jump in. I also make a point of closing my eyes when my head's in the water, and generally keeping my head above water except for one dunk to rinse my hair. (And remember - no campsuds in the water!)

didjfan - "I have my own ideas on what is the best for different areas and with large groups." - That's the problem, everyone has their own ideas, and no one is willing to multiply the effects of their impact by the thousands of people who use an area. They look at the vastness of the outdoors and think "what difference is my little pile of sh!t going to make in the great scheme of things?" But the outdoors ain't so vast anymore and the thousands and thousands of piles of sh!t are starting to get pretty disgusting. (I don't mean to pick on you, it sound like you probably use the proper techniques yourself.)”

“I can honestly say that during the time I hiked with Didj last year neither did I see him crouched in
"the position", nor did I ever see any sign that he had done so.

Hey!
You want to hear a gross story about smash and smear?

Well, you're going to hear one anyway.

Last August, whilst I was traveling with a family on a 22 day trip down the JMT, we camped overnight at a frequently used campsite.

I got up early the next morning to take a walk to find a nice private spot to drop a load.

So, I climb up off the trail, and head for a big rock pile I see that holds the promise of having some comfortable seats.

I get up to a "good" spot and proceed to take care of bizness.
As I head back down to our campsite, I cross a big flat slab of granite.
I look down and I can't quite figure out what it is that I am looking at.
It looks like some huge patch of dark colored lichen.
It had to be at least five feet across and a quarter inch thick.
So I'm standing there looking at this thing.
I stand back and look at it from different angles, but I realize it is just too uniform to have arrived there naturally.
All of a sudden, I see another rock. About the size and shape of a big man's fist.
It's sitting at the edge of this mystery.
And, the end of this rock is CAKED with SH!T!
I swear to GOD!
Who ever DREW this thing must have been constipated.
This wasn't the classic smear routine.
This person did a regular Picasso on the peak.
UGH!”

“This thread is kind of like a car wreck, can't look away.
That's right Mel, I'm the Phantom sh!ter.
For the record:
Above treeline with little or no soil, I smash n smear. Pack out paper usually, but burn if conditions are right.
In the trees I find a down fall that is in a advanced stage of decompostion if possible. Lots of critters living here.
In the snow is tough. Packing it out would be a option, but I have yet to do it.
I use the anti-bacterial gel for clean up, so when you see me digging through mel's buckets you can eat without thinking so much about cooties!
Now that's a whole other thread, Don't touch my food!!”

“I'm definitely with you on the anti-bacterial gel. Wouldn't camp without it!”

“what a picture you all are painting!!!

Sol.....i certainly have no cojones....but i do have a layer of blubber....does that count?....i survived the lakes up in the Winds last year..the first plunge took my breath away...but did not stop my heart...it was an epiphany of sorts.......then i couldnt pass a lake without going in...gotta be sunny tho...”

“When you burn your TP, do you do it right after you use it,? Or pack it and wait until later?

Mel - You're right. I went to dig a cathole on our first Llama trip when we were camped away from the trail and dug up someone's underwear. I moved to a different spot.

OM - Some people can handle freezing cold water...More power to them!”

“i have mostly gone into wilderness areas where fires are discouraged and have carried a large ziplock bag inside another large ziplock bag to pack out tp.. ..it never seems a problem.....i use unscented baby wipes for the tough jobs and a couple of squares of tp for #1
then i try to follow a low residue eating regimen ....
what goes in must come out.....
the gel for hand washing is wonderful as are the wet ones... .....”

“Phil.......
The yellow TP gets carried to a place where I can burn it.
Any brown TP usually gets burned on the spot, OR......
Depending how high up I am, I will take it FAR, FAR away from my "work", shred it well, and find a big rock (one I can easily lift) sitting in it's own hole.
I lift the rock out of the hole (it has to be with a lot of other rocks) put the TP in the hole, and drop the rock back in. Position it perfectly, leave no sign it was ever moved.
TP does decompose when it's shredded, and not tied up in a pile of poopoo.
Trust me.
I know this.
I go back over the following years to see if it worked.
It does.”

“Oh poop!”

“Mel - You really know your sh!t.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)”

“lol@Phil, if you kept digging after you found the underwear, you may have found the body to go with them. Has the mafia discovered the Sierras, lol :{}”

“LH - You had to be there.

I think the last place you would find the mafia and 99.9% of the general population is the Sierra backcountry. Besides, I would put Mel and her llamas up against the mafioso anytime. Larry, Roy and Oreo would spit in their face, and, before the knew what hit them, Mel would put out their lights.”

“Do you realize how much carbon you are releasing into the atmosphere by burning TP instead of allowing it to remain fixed in the TP? Burying the TP, no matter how long it takes to decompose keeps carbon out of the atmosphere. (getting kind of knit-picky ain't we?)

I think it would be highly unlikely for all twenty people on the trip to lineup at the same time to do their business.

I like individuallity.”

“Unburned hydrocarbons in the atmosphere are not good. But what is the harm from burned carbon at such a small level of concentration?

So, what are we llama hikers going to do to control our "methane gas" production!!!!”

“E-GAD!
How much hydrocarbon do five sheets of burned TP release as opposed to the hydrocarbons released when you ride in a vehicle with a gasoline engine?
What about all those jet airplanes flying around up there in the sky?
What about all the industrial pollution produced by China and Russia? The stuff that gets blown over the Pacific ocean and ends up over this continent?
Just for that, I'm going to use 10 squares of TP when I wipe my behind, I'm going to douse them in white gas, on top of a pile of wood chips and top them all off with a half-dead endangered kangaroo rat, and torch it all with 25, blue diamond, strike anywhere, stick matches.
WHOOSH!”

“Phil, when you dug up that underwear, it had to be funny. Yes, I think mel could take care of the mafia, lol.

Inaddition to shirts for the trip, mel should make herself into an action figure for worldwide distribution. She would be wearing cut-offs with a long blond braid and tiny boots. Her accessories would be a backpack & a fishing pole. I think the doll would be a great example for growing girls.

The llamas would be sold separately, lol.”

“Me and my daddy was ridin in our truck the nother day and my daddy stopped the truck and said "Whazzat?" I looked out my leetle windo and my daddy said "No, not out that windo - look out the nother windo, happy nice sarabelle." So I looked out the nother leetle windo and cross the road.

I looked for a minit and did not see nothin much to look at that I never did see before. There was a fens, and rocks, and grass, and bushes
and...
and...

OH MY DAWG?!
WHAT THE H-E-DOUBLE-HOCKY-STIX IS THAT?!!!!
o8=

It was a weerd aminal layin down in the cow yard. Then IT STANDED UP!

IT WAS BIG LIKE A COW! But it was not a cow. Or a mewl.

Know what?
IT WAS A LAMMA!
I SEEN A LAMMA!

Lammas are coool.
(o:3

We was in a hurry, but I think that mebbe my daddy will take me there again so I can play with the lamma and smell his butt.
I sure hope it's a stinky butt!”