Encroachment of NPS Land

“I took the dog for a hike today and decided to hike the western NPS boundary of a rather secluded area of the CVNRA where I have a geocache stashed! I waypointed each NPS boundary I found till they disappeared when I came to a high-priced housing development. And guess what...Those dicks built onto NPS land.

What really burns me up is the CVNRA acquired the land parcel by parcel via Imminent Domain. With this they also established a buffer zone around the whole park.

This has no established trails and is actually one of the largest untainted and most pristine areas of the Valley. I saw deer, turkey and blue herring today (I see them all the time hiking anyway). The NPS did not create a buffer zone around this area and subsequently let these developers build right up to AND ONTO this area.

Maybe I'm just jealous!”

“May I suggest that you drop a dime?
I would hope somebody would like to know.”

“Oh man! I'm showing my age again. Phone calls aren't a dime anymore are they? But drop a quarter just doesn't sound as good.”

“How about "drop a dime-and-quarter?" Sounds catchy too.

But seriously, this is an outrage. Yer right Buddar, developers don't give a fuk what they destroy.”

“Buddur, are you certain there is encroachment? Is it possible the boundary is not a straight line between the boundary points you found? Maybe the landowner had an "inholding"?

If this development really encroached on NPS land you need to make some noise. But check it out carefully before blowing the whistle!”

“you saw a blue herring???

are you sure it wasn't a red one?”

“I am confused about your statements. Does NPS = National Park Service? Does NRA = National Recreation Area? If yes the park service is not usually involved with NRAs, at least not the ones I have visited. There are private holding all over the Sawtooth NRA in Idaho. For years there was even an old miner that lived on and worked a claim inside the federally designated Sawtooth Wilderness Area. The claim died with the miner. There are no private holdings in the wilderness area now.

Encroachment is not very likely. They use professional surveyors and engineers to mark the boundaries of developments. I think I would trust those surveys more than your GPS.”

“True Ms. Gal, as I'm not sure they actually encroached.

The area is the Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area (CVNRA), and although I did not know the NPS is not usually associated to an NRA, the boundary markers said "NPS" Boundary on them.

I used the most recent USGS 7.5 min Quad showing the marked boundary in conjunction with my GPS readings of the markers to base my judgement. I ain't 100% sure, but it sure appears like they did.

I used the Quad to determine a line of waypoints and entered them into my GPS to represent the boundry as indicated by the Quad map. Next time I get the chance, I'm going to hike that line to see where it traverses. I think giving the line a 100ft variance should give me some idea of "how close to" or "how far over" the boundary the development is.

I did see lots of surveyor stakes and ribbons, but just because a surveyor marks subdivisions doesn't mean they regard a NPS boundary...especially when the boundary wasn't well defined (only in the area of the development are there NO markers) to begin with, or the markers taken down purposely.

It just burns me up how they took away property from families that have lived in the area forever to create the CVNRA and its buffer zone, and then allow new development to build adjacent to one of the most pristine areas without allowing a buffer zone between the two. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they acquired the land and formed an NRA for me and others to enjoy...but this development seems to go against the grand scheme of how this NRA land is/was supposed to be preserved!

Does money (proverbially) talk? I think in this case it SCREAMS. If you were to see the houses built in this development...you'd get that impression too.”

“The bank ain?t gona leaned no money on land where the ownership is in question.”

“i WONDER IF THEY'RE CLOSE 'NUFF TO THE CUYAHOGA TO REQUIRE FIRE INSURANCE?”

“Geez. I'm sure no one in Cleveland's heard that one before. Nice town - that Cleveland.

Anyway, Buddur, I only live a couple of hours away from the CVNRA. How's the hiking? Do people backpack it? I'll head out there some weekend.”

“Sorry, no camping...actually, just don't get caught.

It's an awesome dayhike'n area with lots of badland-like terrain along the Valley perimeter. If'n ya make to this neck of tha woods, let me know. We'll hook up and I'll give ya'a tour.

I set out some geocaches in the more remote portions of the Valley, and have gotten people lost looking for them because they didn't know to bring a map and compass with them.”

“Today I got booted off land that I've been to many times. I'm so f-ked off right now because of it.

Took Buddur to the Vets and then out to get wet. Took him to a hidden lake nearby the area I mentioned earlier in this thread...where I've taken him many times in the past.

While hiking to, I came across a girl with 4 dogs. I thought it was great, I mean, oh nevermind!

Well, the first thing out of her mouth was "You're on private property and i'm going to have to ask you to leave!" What a buzzkill!

She proceded to tell me that she watches the area for people who "rent" the property. Take note - this property is well within the NPS boundry. She specifically said they rent 200 acres! Wha da fa? I was in woods!!!

After stopping at a friends house and spewing my grife, she gave me a newspaper article of a woman whose parents farm property was attained by the NPS via Emminent Domain 25 years ago...and now the NPS wants to rent the land. What's wrong with this picture? She's pissed and making lots of noise about it. Talked about the family problems associated to the boot. I don't blame her!

I did asbestos assessments of 13 (of many other) dwellings in the Park and I know they have been razeing structures to "turn the area back to its natural state". And the structures that have historic significance are being restored. I was told by the NPS Env person that one house we did was just built...a dreamhouse the couple was going to grow old and die in. Soon after it was finished the NPS came in and said they wanted the property. The couple fought tooth and nail...but lost the battle.

ANYWAYS I was in woods damnit...not farmland! The NPS are renting property that's been set aside for the people...am I right? And selfishly prude ones at that!”

“Buddur, that all sounds very strange, I don't understand at all why some woman with dogs is looking for someone "renting" the property. What does that mean? (maybe growing marijuana there??)

I do believe the NPS handles NRAs. National parks usually have some long, drawn-out planning tool, many pages long. Why don't you try to hunt that down and see if it answers some of your questions?”

“I believe the NPS has lost track of why they set aside land in the first place. Taking property one decade, then renting it out later...and keeping people off property meant for...us The People!

Bastards!”

“Capitalist Pigs!!!
Taking the People's Land!!!”

“If you found their long-term planning document, I bet it would explain a lot. And if you really like the land and care for it, do it. Then, if there's weird crap going on that makes no sense, contact your friendly local reporter and convince him/her you've got something that would make a good article. Reporters love to find and expose stuff like that (I know **I** do!) and then, hopefully, things can get changed for the better.

I still don't understand the renting thing, though. That makes no sense, at least from what you told. I mean, $200 what?? $200/acre? $200/month? What? BLM rents out range land out west, so that I understand (although I don't like it). But I didn't think the NPS did that. So I keep thinking something is really wrong here and you could expose something immensely wrong.

C'mon Buddur, don't just whine about it, do something about it!”

“I wrote "She specifically said they rent 200 acres!" What's not to undersatnd, Ms. Liz? They rent 200 acres!

Already called a Park Personnel I know who confirmed they RENT land. But can they keep people off the land is what I want to know? Trying to get ahold of the woman who is fighting the NPS about them renting the land they took from her family, and Emailed the reporter who did the story. And about doing something about it...I'm way ahead of you. I want answers!”

“Mtn gal's right that park boundaries are often extremely tortured, and inholdings can just complicate that further. It is extremely possible that the USGS Quad does not contain detailed boundary information. In fact I think I've seen some small print on some USGS quads about some boundaries lines being approximate.

Still, it does sound like there's some odd things going on out there. I hope you do follow up and start an investigation.

"Renting" NPS land? It doesn't make sense. Rent what? When you rent or lease something, you license certain specific rights. Obviously they're not renting mineral rights, or timber rights, or water rights, or even the right to build on the land or permanently occupy it. If it's public land I would think it would be illegal to rent exclusive access or exclusive egress rights. I suppose they could be renting grazing rights, but that wouldn't give them exclusivity of egress or the right to kick people off.

By the way, the National Recreation Areas ARE under National Park Service jurisdiction. But in this case, it may be a moot point. I think the park you are talking about is actually Cuyahoga Valley National Park, isn't it? I did a search for "Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area," and it led me to the website of CVNP! Here's the address:

http://www.nps.gov/cuva/home.htm

Here's an excerpt from the home page:

"Cuyahoga Valley National Park (CVNP) preserves 33,000 acres along 22 miles of
this crooked river between Cleveland and Akron, Ohio. In the early 1960s spreading
development threatened to take over this valley. Individual citizens joined forces with
state and local governments to save the greenspace and historic features. Their
efforts crossed paths with the National Park Service, which was then establishing
urban recreation areas as a way to bring national parks to people living in cities. In
1974, Congress created CVNP as an urban park of the National Park Service. The
National Park Service manages the park in cooperation with others who own
property within its boundaries, including Cleveland Metroparks and Metro Parks,
Serving Summit County, both of which administer several units within CVNP.
Together they protect the natural landscape, preserve remnants of the area's human
history, and provide a place where you can relax, play and learn new things in a
beautiful outdoor setting."

So some of the inholdings are still public land, but just don't belong the park service. Maybe some other entity other than NPS is "renting" that land. Still wrong though.

If you go to the webpage and click on maps, you can look at a park map (or download a detailed PDF map) that shows a park with an extremely tortured shape and extremely twisted border lines. I can easily believe all the twists and turns are not properly drawn on the USGS map.

Go get 'em, Buddur! Keep us posted!”

“That is amazingly strange! I think lots of people might want to take a look at this and stop it. Is the NPS turning into another BLM? I don't think we need that!”