Llama Trip 2001 - 7 day group thread (3/ 15)

“I have been doing some research on the possible shortcut from Crabtree Lakes to Trail Crest. I made a Shortcut Page which includes some maps and a profile and linked it to the trips page describing what I have found so far. We can continue to research it.

If anyone out there has some first hand information, please let us know.”

“This looks good. Even better than my Whitney Pass idea.
I've been trying to get more info myself, including a phone call to the Lone Pine Ranger Station. "Sir, we can't plan your trip for you. You're going to have to do your own research." is the answer I got. I wonder what she thought my phone call was.”

“Phil,
I'm probably not hiking out with the seven day group but I must say the route looks much less strenuous than the standard frontal assault from Guitar Lake. What is interesting is it takes you so close to the route into (or out of) the Miter Basin via Crabtree Pass. So my question is why don't some of you seven day people come up into the Miter Basin with me? You could spend a couple more layover days relaxing, go over Crabtree, and then do your proposed route to Whitney.”

“Solitary - I'll consider anything, but am most likely going to stick with the main groups. With this plan, we will have layover days at Crabtree lakes, which is supposed to be nice.

Tell me again--how were you getting to Miter Basin?”

“null”

“Opps, guess I'd better paste in my message before I hit the submit message button.

OK here it is.

Phil,
If you look at Map 3 in the group Mel sent us you will see a dashed black line going from the Red Line trail to the Purple Line trail. This dashed line is between the ?7.46mi? marker and the red tent (our camping spot for night of July 31st). I propose camping with the group that night and then hiking the black dashed line over to Purple Line trail. Proceeding north on the Purple Line trail to the point labeled ?Day 6&7-return group. 6.72 mi.? This point is also shown on Map 7. If you look at this spot on Map 7 you will see a red tent just to the north. That is my proposed camp for the night of Aug. 1st and possibly my base camp for the entire stay. If that didn?t look promising or was full of people I might hike to the north side of Sky Blue Lake the next day . I?d camp where there was access to good water coming down out of the small alpine lake north of the Miter. So this area would be my base camp for the nights of August 2nd, 3rd, etc. until I met up with the X-C group coming down from Crabtree Pass (north to south).

Anyone in the seven day group would camp with me at or near Sky Blue Lake and then go over Crabtree Pass (south to north). They would then camp at the uppermost of the Crabtree Lakes or move down to the middle one (with the sandy beach). If camping there you would backtrack to the uppermost Crabtree Lake and begin your climb to Discovery Pass/Whitney.”

“Sol - I see what you mean and it is an inviting option. However, I am reluctant to split off of the group. If a splinter group or person gets lost or cannot connect back up, the rest of the group is screwed. Likewise, if the main group finds the need to change their plans, they are left in the lurch also. With the current plan, only the 10 day group has an issue of meeting back up after they split up for a while. Also, I am really looking forward to being with everyone as much as possible.

It does look like a lot of hiking, but I am going to try to be better prepared this year. Last year I was in good shape and that helped. This year I am going to try to have a little lighter load (I always say that).”

“Phil, here's a link to an excellent trip report with Pictures that I found. These guys took an interesting route. The went in over New Army Pass to Soldier Lake, then rather than going down Rock Creek and around on the trail as my group did in '98, they went up Miter Basin, over Crabtree Pass, down to Crabtree Lakes, around to Guitar Lake, and then up Whitney and over.

There are several photos that give a good view of the terrain in upper Miter Basin and in upper Crabtree Basin. (Interesting -- discussion between the 2 parts of the group over whether passing the uppermost Crabtree Lake is better along the south side or the north side.)

I don't know if they didn't know about the Discovery Pass route or if they thought Crabtree Pass was adventure enough for them and then they wanted to make the conventional west side approach. But I can tell you, based on reading this trip report and others, and observing the terrain around Trail Crest myself, that going from Crabtree Lakes to Trail Crest via Discovery Pass may be the more adventurous, more exciting option, and it may even be shorter in ground miles, but it will *not* be easier than going to Guitar Lake. Crabtree Pass sounds hard enough, but Discovery Pass is higher and steeper, and instead of nice graded switchbacks up to Trail Crest you're talking about rock hopping and talus sliding at over 12000 feet. Food for thought.

Anyway, here's the URL:

http://www.stowell.org/whitney99/”

“explorer,

Thanks. There is a big difference between rock hoping and switchbacks if you are gaining a one or two thousand feet!”

“Crabtree pass seems a little challenging. I don't like the idea of rock hoping with a 50 lb. pack!”

“Phil, especially above 12000 feet! ;-O”

“And you want to lure me into going over Crabtree Pass Explorer? LOL! You sly dog you!

Give me lazy days of grass chewing in the Miter Basin. I'll have some cold Gator Aid for you guys when you come down off of the Pass.

signed,

a slackard”

“Sol, I've got to get in a little adventure! Still plenty of layover days for me.

Can you scout out easy routes to all the lakes for us before we get there? LOL”

“Phil, check me on this, but if I read that report right (from the link I gave earlier) the easier route for rounding the uppermost Crabtree Lake is on the *North* side (the friends crossed the snow-slope on the *south* side). If I remember correctly Secor agrees with this.”

“I rechecked the trip report and didn't see any comment about which way was better. The crossed on the South side according to their map.

We can still keep looking for more info.”

“As I read it, they split up, with half taking the north and half the south. There's a picture across the lake of half the group crossing a snow field that slopes into the lake, I think on the south side, and the note says something to the effect of "the photographer's side is better than the subjects' side."”

“I'll look again when I get the chance! I missed that.

I am about to go to Sport Chalet. I am going to look at all their Sierra hiking books and see if there are any tidbits about Discovery Pass and Crabtree Pass.

Later!”

“you california folks are making me dizzy looking at the maps........i want to go and see everything with everyone...sigh.....i am putting them away at once....”

“No luck at Sport Chalet. All the books just told about the standard trails and rock climbing routes.

I did pick up a Whitney zone map. It is very detailed and made of plastic. I can't resist a good map.

I will try Borders next.”

“My interpretation of the notes and the one photo at the upper Crabtree is that the picture was taken from the north side of the lake. The group on the opposite side (difficult side) are hiking left to right which if they are headed downhill means they were on the south side of the lake.

As far as laying up ducks for a route....well maybe something could be worked out .... Tell me, will you guys have any cold beer at camp on the first night?”

“Just got back from Borders where I purchased, "The High Sierra - Peaks, Passes, and Trails" by R. J. Secor ($29.95). I assume this is the reference in explorer's post above.

On page 40 is says:

Discovery Pass - Class 2. Strictly speaking, this is not a pass. It crosses the southeast ridge of Discovery Pinnacle. It is the easiest, most direct route between the Mount Whitney Trial and the Crabtree Creek drainage and has also been used to climb Mount Hitchcock. From the highest switchback of the Mount Whitney trail, simply leave the trail and cross the Sierra crest southeast of Discovery Pinnacle. The sourtheast slopes of the "pass" are sandy, and it is easy to descend to Crabtree Lakes. A Mount Whitney Zone stamp on your wilderness permit is needed to reach the Mount Whitney Trail."

Whitney Pass. Class 1-2. At one time the Mount Whitney Trail crossed Whitney Pass, but his portion of the trail has been abandoned for a long time. This pass is included here only for the record. Discovery Pass is the preferred route.
-------
Discovery Pass appears to be OK for going down, but up is still a question to get a better answer on. Another part talks about climbing Mt. Hitchcock from the Southwest slopes. It says: "Southwest slopes. Class 1. Ascend these seemingly interminable sandy slopes from the upper crabtree lake."

Here it calls it a class 1. That is a good indication that this route is OK. My biggest fear is trying to climb up scree or loose sand with a 50 lb. pack. I suspect here will be a visible use trail, but would sure like to hear about it from someone who has done it.

I never did see where it says which side of the upper Crabtree lake is the best trail. It just says the use trail is "good".”

“Great info! Thanks.
Do you think your pack will still be 50 lbs. with just 2 days left? I hope mine will be closer to the 25 lbs., mark including the bear cannister.”

“Last year I hiked out from the Llama hike early with over 50 lbs. At best I could get it down to 45.

Keep in mind, we have to carry a lot of water on the day we hit Mt. Whitney.

I went to the gym today and made sure I did as much as I could on the leg press just thinking about it!”

“Good info Phil. I have vol. 1 of the Secor book and I assume you picked up vol. 2 so it'll be good to compare and see if there was any update. The part you quoted I think is unchanged but I'll check the book at home later.

The route he describes you'll be taking backwards -- *up* the sandy slopes that are an easy descent to Upper Crabtree Lake, then across the crest to meet the top of 99 switchbacks to Trail Crest. As I recall, there *is* a visable use trail heading to the left below the crest at the top of the last switchback before the final traverse to the right to Trail Crest. You'd be coming *down* that, meet the top of the Whitney Trail, climb *up* to Trail Crest, then *down* to the junction with the trail to the summit. Most people leave their packs near the junction but there's no reason you couldn't leave yours where you first meet the Whitney Trail, since you'll be returning that way to head down to Trail Camp.

I imagine our groups would split off at the northeast corner of the Upper Crabtree Lake. Solitary described the right picture and description I was talking about, and I think Secor's description of Crabtree Pass says the north shore as well. Do you think you could post the version from your edition of the book so we can compare?”

“Second Ed. Pg. 39:

Crabtree Pass - Class 2. This pass has also been called "Miter Pass." Crabtree Pass is the low point of the ridge between Mount McAdie and Mount Newcomb. It provides access between Crabtree Lakes and upper Rock Creek. A good use trail leads from upper Crabtree Meadow to the Crabtree Lakes. From the higest lake in the basin, ascend a short, steep section of talus to the pass. Descend to Lake and head southwest from this lake before turning east to the inlet of Sky BLue Lake. Pass Sky Blue Lake on its east side. Descend Rock Creek on its west bank to a use trail that passes through Miter Basin and leads down to the New Army Pass Trail.

What does the first edition say?”

“With respect to which side of Upper Crabtree Lake to use, I have seen 2 references to using the NORTH side. One is a late 70s edition of Sierra South. The other is a CD that I recently purchased from
http://www.sierrawilderness.com/store.html
Sierra Nevada South $39.95 Version 2.1 From Mountain Images
Good luck, Phil”

“Phil, I checked and vol. 1 says the same thing. The only change on Discovery Pass is that he added the last sentence about needing a Whitney Zone stamp. The only change on Crabtree Pass is he reworded the end: "Descent Rock Creek on its west bank. A use trail is eventually encountered which leads down to the New Army Pass Trail." Interesting that he changed "eventually encountered." I think this implies that the use trail through Miter Basin is becoming more prominent as the area is more widely known.

So I was wrong about Secor designating a shore for Upper Crabtree Lake, but I stil think I read north side somewhere else.

Rand, thanks for the tip. Actually, I've looked at this route on the Mountain Images discs so maybe that's where I got the idea. The photos on there, and the photos on that trip report (above) from across the lake AND from the top of the pass looking down both support the north side too.

All righty, then.

So, Phil, are you now leaning toward doing Discovery Pass? Have you done Guitar Lake previously? You know, I was actually thinking it would be really cool while we were climbing Crabtree Pass and you were ascending Discovery Pass we'd be able to get some cool pictures of the opposite party.”

“Rand - Yes, Thanks!

I am very tempted by Discovery Pass. Secor described the hike to Mt. Hitchcock as Class 1. I suspect (hope?) that the hike to Discovery Pass is similar. Some sort of confirmation from someone who has done it would be really cool.

Last summer I hiked out early from the Llama hike using Wright Pass at Mel's recommendation. I was afraid to go off trail alone, but had a strong hiker with me so we tried it. There was a very visible use trail there and we were up and over the pass in no time. It shaved 6 miles off the hike out.

By August there should be a very visible use trail there if one exists at all.

I am a little confused on the itinerary. Are we arriving at Crabtree Lake on the 3rd or 4th day of the trip? This makes a big difference to the 7 day group regarding having a layover day. I really want a layover day!!! Discovery Pass could be our answer! (Two layover days?)”

“The information we got with the reservations said that food, toiletries, and all smellables were to be in a bear cannister at all times except when in use.

This is a slight change for me since I haven't been putting my toiletries in the cannister until night. Also, I have a tendency to keep my first aid kit handy, not out of reach deep in my backpack.

Any thoughts?”

“Phil,
I've read someplace that toiletries should be kept out of your tent and/or clothing because of bears. They confuse the purfumes in soaps, toilet paper, etc. with good things to eat.

My question to you guys is what do the guide books say about bears in the Miter Basin? I really don't want to purchase (or haul around) a bear canister if I don't have to.”

“Sol - I felt the same way until I shared one last summer on a hike. I got one soon after that. No more counterbalancing (and I must admit I had nearly perfected counterbalancing). I regret the 2.5 lbs., but it seems to be the right thing to do.

If you really go solo in Miter basin, you don't want to take any chances on losing your food. IMHO, Get it now, or get it later! (Larry and Oreo won't be there to protect you!)”

“Phil,
Are there really going to be bears up high in the Miter Basin? I would have thought that up around Sky Blue Lake I would have left the bears far behind.

As far as canisters (ugh!) I know you bought yours with a Forest Service discount. These things cost about $60! Should I buy from Campmor or wait till I get to California. Is Campmor the best deal going that you know of?
Can you get me a discount? Come on bud, can ya!”

“Rand - Is "Rand" a historical family name? Just wondering. It is my mother's maiden name.”

“Sol - I am more than happy to get you a bear cannister with my discount. I checked the website "Backcountry store" (www.sgwa.org) and didn't see it listed. They might only sell it at the ranger station. I will inquire. They are really encouraging the use of cannisters locally now. We have had an increase in bear problems in the forests around Los Angeles.”

“Sol, there could be bears in Miter Basin. I didn't see any signs when I was there, but I didn't see any signs when they stold my food in Yosemite. The cannisters really work. The 2 times I've lost food it was the excess that wouldn't fit in the cannister. They got that, counter balanced in the tree, but never even sniffed at the cannister. They know they can't get in it.”

“Let me know if I've missed anything here.
There are a few people who are concerned about doing this route.
They are on your permits.
If you should decide to do this route, what are these people going to do about a permit if they decide they don't want to do this route?”

“Hmmmm?..... You know, we haven't really considered that. Oh well ...we're sure they will figure something out!”

“As I suggested on the other thread, the group going to Guitar Lake can take the permit. The splinter group is unlikely to need a permit staying the extra night at Crabtree Lake with the rest of us, or off-trail over Discovery Pass, and then they'll meet the permit group at Trail Crest or on the summit, or at worst at Trail Camp that night. Make sense?”

“Mel - As far as I am concerned, this is just a discussion. I am not trying to splinter anyone off. I apologize if that is what came across. What I am trying to do is run the rabbit into the hole about Discovery Pass. It may be very a very reasonable hike that everyone would be comfortable with. In fact, I hope Sol reconsiders his Miter basin idea. I've been reading up on the area and the books say the hike we are on is one of the most scenic stretches in the Sierras. Is that true?

Sol - I got a reply from the Forest Service Volunteer coordinator on the bear cannisters. They are still for sale at the Ranger station, but no over the internet. So, I should be able to pick one up for you. I will be at the ranger station in May and can give you more info then. Is that OK?

Also, the voluteer coordinator is hiking up Whitney with a group when we are coming out. We should meet on the trail!”

“I just cut & pasted this response from the "Sequoiakingscaynon hikers" club on Yahoo in response to my request:

I have some photos somewhere if I can find them. I was thinking of doing Discovery last year but my Whitney permit was for a week later so I went down Crabtree and came back later. From Crabtree Pass I was interest in the route but when I looked for it all I could say was, 'You've got to be kidding!' I never saw a use trail or anything taking off that direction but in that terrain I wouldn't expect to.

On the other hand, sometimes the worst looking routes turn out to be easy and visa versa. Give it a try and let us know.

Here's a shot of Upper Crabtree Lake from Crabtree Pass. The Discovery route would head out from the lower right but is out of the picture.”

“That last post was from Phil”

“Let's try that Crabtree Pass photo link again.

Phil”

“Phil,
What is the discount price of the bear canister the Forest Service sells? The one in Campmor is
8" X 12" and weighs 2 lbs. 9 ozs. It costs $76.99 and a nylon case for it costs $16.99. OUCH!!!!

I can buy real bear protection (a used pistol....hehehehe) for not much more than this.”

“Sol - I got my Backpackers Cache there for about $55 plus tax last year. I will have to find out the current price. It weighs 2 lb. 7 oz. You saw it last year, but may not remember it.

I haven't seen anyone use the plastic case yet.

BTW, the weight of the kind of gun you would need to stop a bear is about the same as a bear cannister.

The other threat to food is from "mini-bears"--squirrels, chipmonks, etc. Cannisters are great for that also...especially above tree line.

Also, not that it is a problem, but bear cannisters are also effective against llamas.”

“FYI: I have continued to gather information about the passes, etc., near Crabtree. I have searched for photes, etc. I think I finally have some additional information to pass along. Here are three recent quotes from the Yahoo Club: SequoiaKingsCanyonHikers:

Posted 4/14 by Roger_39: "From Crabtree Pass I saw several groups crossing Discovery Pass last year. It appears to be just a slog. No trail! It is important not to start up from too low down in the basin. I saw a group that did this having some trouble with cliffs."

Posted 4/14 by pctpacker: "I don't think this route is a good one for beginners and it is not faster than going around on the trails. We split into two groups and the 'trail' group beat us around by a good half day. The X-C routes are slower going and more tiring, but worth it."

Posted 3/15 by Extravatrekker: "One of the great things about xc travel is routefinding. That's why purists have disdain for ducks/cairns, prefering to trek under the notion that no one has gone exactly this way before. To successfully wend ones torso via deer trails and marmot ledges is the reward of x/c trekking. I believe it was pct who posted a foto showing a ramp leading from the upper lake. When I was at Discovery Pass I saw this ramp as the easiest way to gain 500-700' under a pack. From there, as everyone says, it's a slog, meaning the footing is unstable. I found that out on my descent from Crabtree during an exhausted and stupid glissade attempt. If you're entering Crabtree from Miter, then Discovery Pass is much shorter. If you're camping at the lower, tree'd, Crabtree Lake...it's more work but definitely more exotic. But the joy is in routefinding, in the moment. I can't say how many times my route changed when I actually got there."

In a nutshell, it looks like there may be a use trail that starts up from near the upper Crabtree lake that is not too bad to start (first 500-700 ft. of gain). Then it is rough and slow going from there ("slog"). Even xc hikers will find it takes longer than the regular trail. It does not appear safer, especially for those of us with 45-50 lb. packs.

I will keep researching. Just keeping everyone informed.”

“Phil,
I've been reading the posts over at the SEKI site too. Studying the map and that picture of upper Crabtree Lake from the pass I can see where the first 500 feet of "easy" elevation gain would come in at. From that point (west of the lake) you'd have to face the hard elevation gain up to the ridge facing east-west. I think I'll sit up there and watch you guys. Maybe I could do a photo shoot of the whole climb.”

“Sol - Thanks! You're a big help!”

“I'm glad it's not me.
I automatically get all the incoming from the SEKI site, and also the ones from the Yahoo JMT club.
I can follow what you all are doing without dropping in there.
My route finding days with a pack are over.
That's why God invented llamas!”

“LOL!! Gosh Phil, for once I don't know if you're being truly appreciative of what would be my Herculian effort to climb atop Crabtree Pass or just scarcastic.

Mel,....you wussy!

PS: Damn I can hardly wait till July. This trip is going to greeeeaaaatt!”

“Websters defines "scarcastic" as "of or being in the nth degree of sarcasm.”