new ANWR thing

“alright. I'm havin a hard time getting a handle on the opinion here. All for ANWR drilling, post your name in the pro thread, and the other way around.”

“But then how could we possibly squabble with those in the opposing faction?”

“I have not seen enough credible evidence on either side. A lot of emotion and name calling but very little substantiated fact.”

“Mtn Ho --

I'll assume that you are crediting me with the name calling (Dumbest, moron, stupid, ho . . .stuff like that).

I gotta tell ya. I used to be a great debater . . .facts, figures, statistics you name it, I had it. One day, in a moment of clarity I realized that IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER (thank you Bill Murray. Not a bit. This website and its various debate threads is a great microcausim (sp?) for society as a whole. Tehipite and Kleetn have their stats, the other side has the ANWR drilling website and their stats.

Who is to say who is truly "right" by the "numbers"? Who is to say whose numbers are correct? Whose sources are accurate, unbiased?. . .and more importantly, who gives a sh-t?

At this point in my life, I go on my gut. And if I think something is stupid, then by extension the people who support it are stupid.

My gut, and widely reported and accepted news stories (Prince William Sound, Drilling Platform in Brazil, Galapagos Islands etc etc etc)have convinced me that no oil exploration/drilling is safe. There is always some spillage. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is dumb and/or stupid.

There is no good societal, energy, or security, reason for drilling the ANWR oil. People who make these are either dumb and stupid or are domestic oil producers trying to convince dumb and stupid people.

There is a "good" economic reason for drilling. So that the domestic producer who has the rights can make some money. So that the govt. can make some tax dollars. So that the annual oil dividend to residents of AK will go up. Those are all "good" reasons.

I just happen to think they are bullsh-t reasons. And not good enough to justify the environmental impact. (and it goes w/out saying that anyone who thinks differently must be . . .stupid)!!

That was fun.”

“Are you going to take that Mtn Gal?”

“So I guess, Mr.Lee, we all can go by your point of view and equate you as being a "dick" because of how you slandered Ms. MtnGal.

I'm not for environmental damage...but in my field of work, I know that oil drilling is just a drop in the bucket as far as detrimental environmental impact.

When you whom are against future progress of the US finally quit using electricity, driving your vehicles, etc... then you can b!tch all you want about this drilling travesty! Is it so bad that you don't want the US to become more independent from those countries and cultures who essentially hate us, but accept the fact that we are their major purchasers? They F#&% with us by slowing down oil production, then you gripe about the price of gas increasing, and then complain when the US tries to attain our own oil! Give me a break!

I'll bet most of you work for companies that negatively impact the environment of areas in YOUR region, of course you're unaware of it and proly don't care cause you don't hike there.”

“Shut up Ken!

Lee I was directing my comments at no one in particular. I reject the ?think with your heart? (or gut in your case) approach to decision making. Our ability for critical thought and making complex judgments based on known facts is what make us the top animal in the food chain. Note I said ?making complex judgments based on known facts?. I did not say that the ?number? would unequivocally show the right answer. I said I (me) don?t have enough credible facts to make this decision. You can say the facts don?t matter to you. That is fine. But if you are trying to convince a rational intelligent fair minded person (I be one of those I think) the emotions don?t matter and the facts do. I know we will never have all the possible information but I definitely need more that I have seen on this site. You can question the shortage of oil but there is no question about the shortage of rational intelligent fair minded persons (on both sides of this issue).”

“Buddur you stole my line. I agree that those that want all of us, the society, to make sacrifices for their cause, what ever it may be, should be the first to make those sacrifices. It is called leadership and responsibility. I especially get ticked off at the rich hollywood types touting this or that cause but still living like some kind of royalty. Do not ask me to make a sacrifice until you have sacrificed to the point that your standard of living is lower than mine.”

“Uh oh... gloves are coming off...I'm outta here before somebody pulls a gun.”

“Shut up Ken!”

“No, Buddur, you give me a motherfriggin' break. Saying nobody who uses any petroleum products has standing to object to government actions that degrade the environment is the most asinine piece of cowpie in the whole debate. It would make a modicum of sense only if ANWR were our only source of oil in the world (in which case opposing drilling really would mean opposing all oil use), or if those opposed to drilling ANWR also opposed all drilling operations everywhere else in the world. It ain't an all-or-nothing proposition, although the drillophiles would like us to think so.

Then you top it off with another classic false dichotomy: drill ANWR, or depend on foreign oil. Umm...given any thought to reducing consumption, which, by the way, we have to friggin' do anyway if we want a livable world in the future.

And before you go saying reducing consumption is a matter of individual responsibility, I'll say you're right--up to a point. But there's a lot more to it than that. Government policy has a huge role to play in this, and it can either make things better (as it did by mandating fuel efficiency standards, for example) or it can make things worse (as local authorities do with zoning laws that effectively mandate auto-dependent residential development). As far as I'm concerned, even a gas-guzzling SUV driver is doing a good thing if he or she tries to influence policy in the former direction.”

“Mtn Gal --

A reasoned response. Can't disagree. My problem is that, following your idea to its logical conclusion (that this complex issue needs more credible facts (which aren't going to be found here)) . . .I think that 1) the facts, wherever they may come from are always biased; 2)That, in the end, the issue IS fairly simple: are you willing to risk certain (although not quantifible) damage to the environment to drill for oil that will make no discernible difference in any of the areas mentioned (price, supply, availability etc).

PS: Sorry about the "Mtn Ho" slap . . . I figured that as long as I was calling names . . .you were good to rise above it.”

“Buddur --
I am sorry but . . . your argument re: "not drilling ANWR will retard the progress of the US" is EXACTLY the kind of specious BS that the oil companies would like the average american suv driving, pick up truck, boat hauling, snowmobile riding, atv driving NASCAR fan to believe.

DON"T BELIEVE IT BUDDUR. TURN AWAY FROM THE DARK SIDE. IT'S A BOATLOAD OF CRAP BUDDUR.

The oil ain't ever gonna find its way into my car or your car. It will be on the world markets, most likely in Japan.

The quantity of oil we are talking about on an annual basis won't be SPIT in the annual consumption of the US.

As far as the price of oil/gas in the US goes . . .IT IS CHEAP!! We have it EASY! Gas in Europe is 3 times more expensive. Gas here SHOULD BE at least 2 or 3 times more expensive than it is. We SHOULD suffer. Maybe at that point SUV's will dissappear. Power boats, skimobiles, ATVs', and all our other "God given rights as Americans" will become to expensive for us to sustain.

And won't the environment be better off for it.

Don't talk to me about being a hypocrite. I would love to see the jackasses in the monster trucks towing gas hog speed boats shut down.

Sure, I consume. But as little as I reasonably can. My biggest fault is having a house that is not energy efficient. It was built 230 years ago and has no insulation in the walls. I keep the heat as low as I can, wear sweaters, and keep door to the upstairs shut so that heat does fly up there, and turn the heat down to 55 at night.

I drive a car way below my means (an awd subura impreza)because it gets good gas mileage and is practical. I bought it used.

Ya know what, exchange environmental bonafides with you was not my intent.

my intent was to say:

DON'T BE STUPID BUDDUR! DON'T BELIEVE THEM. RUN BUDDUR RUN.”

“Touche, Mr. Tephite! However, I too could pick apart your remarks, confuse what was really meant by them, blow what was said out of proportion and reply making you sound like you your remarks are ridiculous even though they drove home a point...but I won't.”

“Buddur, you seem to think I unfairly characterized the content of what you said. Please explain.”

“What's the frequency, Kenneth?”

“i'm glad y'all feel productive!”

“USGS estimates This is the unbiased opinion.”

“Anybody who uses electricity should keep quiet???? There are other ways to produce electricity!!!! Stop the drilling!”

“Um, that would be everyone on this site.”

“switch off eah”

“lee,
the only reason gas is so expensive in Europe is because the governments tax the hell out of it so that people are forced to ride government run mass transport. Either way they make money.”

“deathmarch, sounds like a great idea for the US.”

“I agree”

“Yeah, a real great idea, especially since mass transit is so convenient, always reliable, goes everywhere I need to go and is so safe. Not to mention that transit workers never go on strike.

If you really want to save fuel and produce less pollution, get rid of the friggin car pool lanes. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you reduce the number of lanes from 4 to 3 during rush hour that you've just reduced the through put capacity by 25%. Assuming that 10% of people carpooled, that would still reduce peak capacity by 15%. After 10 years of experimenting, you would think that the social engineers would realize that people do not and will not car pool.”

“Mass transit is convenient, reliable, ubiquitous, and safe...in Europe, where they implement the policies mentioned by deathmarch. It would be a hell of a lot better here if we had similar policies.

BTW, BaSO4, like you I oppose carpool lanes--I think they should be converted to transit-only lanes.”

“ah sheit, I opened another can of worms. I will never give up my car until the day they make alternative energy more powerful then gasoline. IF they drive gas prices up, I'll convert to methanol.”

“There's a great source right on this site!”

“Methanol is more expensive to manufacture. If it costs less, it's because the feds are subsidizing the retailers to sell it. How do I know? My friend owns 90% of the gas stations in Cody, WY. and he has admitted it to me. they started adding it this past winter. More octane too.”

“Good friend to have.”

“Chief....and the government is not subsidizing oil?
(Only to the tune of Billions.)”