China Is Our Enemy

“I don't think that China knows that our new president is from Texas. Or if they do, I don't think they realize how gun-happy some people from Texas can be.

I'm in the military, but I don't particularly look forward to fighting China. The adage has always been, "Never fight a land war in Asia." We were smart enough and lucky enough not to have to invade Japan in WWII, but we're still locked up in Korea, and Vietnam was 12 shades of mistake.

I just hope and pray that the Bush administration can take this for what it is, China rattling their sabre. They want to see exactly what they can get away with. Moreover, I hope and pray that those Navy kids get out of there soon. I really feel for their families.

If there weren't so damned many of them, and if we didn't need them economically, I'd say treat China like a rogue state. Unfortunately, if we break ties with China now, it will likely hurt us more than it'll hurt them.

Just give China a little time and eventually it'll break under its own weight. Just like the Soviets.”

“What we don't want to provide China with is a unifying focus of attention away from their own internal dilemma(s). If the government can get the population keyed in on external matters, it will take much longer for the internal pressures to exert themselves. China is so complicated that the government there is constantly addressing crises we hear little if anything about. But there is a long tradition of group think in the culture and it can be used by the central government to divert all that energy toward a boogeyman (not that the U.S. isn't a threat to China in one sense).”

“My understand of Chinese history is they really do not like to fight choosing instead to absorb the culture of there enemies and install the traits they wont of there culture into there enemy until they have a mix they wont. Then the conquest is complete with out ever firing a shot. And by my score card they are winning. They have no reason to start a war they are only a couple of decades from having us speaking Chinese.”

“Good points Grunt. And it will take me a couple decades to learn more than my smattering of Mandarin; I tried hard when I was in China, but it's tough.”

“Me Chinese, me play joke, me put pee pee in your coke.”

“Historically, Grunt, your correct. Don't forget, however, that we're not dealing with the historical Chinese, but rather the Communist Chinese, which of late, view foriegn concepts dangerous to their ideaology.”

“the Chinese have always cast a slanty eye (I'm bein tongue in cheek just fer you peeney) towards foriegners. The Boxer War is a good example. Although I don't agree with the Maoist government too much at all, I can at least understand their paranoia. Western influences all too often fu(k up people pretty good.”

“I wonder if they are testing us to see ihey can accelerate their plans for taking over Taiwan. This gives them a chance to see whose side the media is on.”

“Phil, it's always a test. The common approach in China is indirect, about business, politics, relationships. The American approach to life is startlingly direct for most Chinese I dealt with. For those chafing at restrictions it was exhilarating to consider direct action, but still confusing and disconcerting. Even when the Chinese appear to be acting overtly and directly, the real agenda may be difficult to discern, especially if we don't have a clear picture on the internal maneuvering of the various factions involved internally.

The thought of Taiwan having those advanced ships just freaks them. Attacking Taiwan if there is a chance of getting repulsed must be a very troubling thought -- the whole government would be humiliated and lose face with the people.”

“Well, I wouldn't sweat too much about us going to war with China. They don't have the capabilities to really do much to us, except in the peripheries like Korea and Japan. They have a few nukes, but not enough to go that route. They'd take out a few US cities, but they'd get wiped out by the counter-strike. Besides, we do too much trade with them for a real war to break out. Each side will piss and whine, try to take the moral high ground, make some meaningless concessions and things will go back to normal. Although I still don't understand how we can try to isolate Cuba and be so open with China when the Chinese have a worse record then the Cubans do. I guess the Chinese American vote isn't as powerful as the Cuban American one.”

“One problem I have with figuring out this incident is that I don't trust either side to tell the truth.

One thing is for sure though, the 24 Americans should come home.”

“I can't wait for china to take over. I'll have General Tso's chicken for dinner every night!”

“That's not a bad dish Sid, I prefer seshuan (sp?) though, spicier! Jumbo gai ding is good too.”

“Another quote from Dr. Strangelove: "But. . . but they'll see the big board!"

hey ranger . . . I respect you for being in the army, and there are a lot of very decent people like yourself - medic girl, SGT ROCK - but I'm not too sure that starting a nuclear war with China is gonna solve anything. Should I call you Gen. MacArthur now?

"And it's one, two, three, what are we fightin for? Don't ask me I don't give a damn. . . well there ain't no time to wonder why. Whoopee we're all gonna die!"”

“Of course most of these favorite Chinese restaurant dishes are much more common in the US than in China ('cept maybe Hong Kong).

A long time ago and I'm sure things are better now, a guy I met had just come back from 6 months in China. I was in Hong Kong about to visit. He said: "THe two things I missed most in China were good Western cooking and good Chinese cooking."”

“vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv”

“That guy wasn't in Sichuan, where we were. Great cooking. The up side for here is that my wife, who didn't cook up to that point, learned to cook in China. Her repertoire is limited, but the Sichuan dishes she learned from our Chinese friends are dynamite. Sichuan ribs, cold spicy noodles, gong bao ji ding (known here as Kung Pao chicken), mapo dofu (spicy bean curd, invented in Chengdu where we were), stir-fried garlic green beans or spinach. If you have to spend a year in China, make sure it is in a place with a good culinary tradition such as Sichuan or Hunan (if you like lots of chili peppers, ginger and garlic).

But it's true, most Chinese restaurants here are a Westernized version and you will be surprised by what you'd get in China. Also, the dishes you get here are very formal food, while much of the best food we had was from street vendors or small family-run noodle shops or made by friends.”

“Pisgah, did you actually read what I wrote? "but I'm not too sure that starting a nuclear war with
China is gonna solve anything." How did you get from my post that I want to start a nuclear war with China? What I was saying is that a war between China and the US is highly unlikely for a number of reasons including the fact that neither side is really capable of doing much damage without resorting to nukes. I'm going to assume you just didn't read carefully and that you're not really an idiot like you come across in your response. And, I'm not in the military, I worked at Philmont for a summer that's where Ranger came from.”

“The imperial chinese also viewed foreign ideas as dangerous (and inferior)”

“Then again, it was Westerners who launched a profitable Opium trade in China and went to war with China when they tried to intercept the opium being transported into their country. It was as if Columbia went to war with us for intercepting and destrouing cocaine that they were trying to ship into the US and sell.

For the last century and 1/2 events like these have strngthened China's xenophobia.”

“I'm sorry ranger. I just used your post as a launching pad for my irrational, irresponsible, and irreprehensible leftist arguments. I'll do better next time when conversing with my fellow Eagle Scouts (again, I'm ASSuming the Eagle thing from Philmont).”

“Hey NCR, that was a great wall!!!”

“we should apologize.

Let's look at it from another angle.

Suppose there was a person in front of your house watching you. He has binoculars, telephoto camera, videocamera, sound recording equipment with amplifiers, etc.
You would be pretty ticked off. It really doesn't matter whether he is standing on your lawn or on the public sidewalk, you would be pretty upset.

So upset, you back your car out of the driveway and try to scare him off. You intend to just swerve toward him, but by accident clip him. He dives onto your lawn injured. So in this scenario, who is at fault? You, for losing your cool, or him, for provoking you?

Espionage is a high stakes game, and those who participate are at risk. Those 24 servicemen and women are spies, just as any CIA trenchcoat. When spies get caught, there is a price to pay.

Bullets are frequently exchanged across the Korean frontier, and during the cold war U.S. and Soviet jets on their respective sides of the line often sent a burst of cannon towards each other. When you play hardball in the big leagues, you expect to get beaned occasionally. Let's just admit they were right to try and force us away, and we were right to gather intelligence on our adversary, just as they are right to spy on us, and us to thwart their intelligence gathering.

If the situation were reversed, and a Chinese intelligence ship had to put into an American port we would be doing the same as the Chinese are doing now.”

“Isn't Calgon the ancient Chinese secret?”

“Wrong. The Chinese people are our brothers and sisters.

Advocating tremendous violence against them is EVIL.

Its 2001. Isn't it about time that we evolved enough that we could reduce the hate and suspicion in the world?”

“Gordon, your analogy doesn't hold water because the rules for individuals (in this country) and the rules for nations are quite different. Those Navy personnel are NOT spies, as they are military. It was NOT espionage, as the Chinese knew what we were doing. Not to mention, this has been going on since the 1950's. The Chinese violated standardized aviation laws by coming inside the EP-3's 200ft security bubble. The Chinese came after us, not the other way around.

I don't advocate going to war with China, or any of that nonsense, but it's obvious that China is antagonizing the new administration and the patience of the American people. A republican representative from Colorado was quoted in Reuter's as saying "I've got an apology for them (China). I'm sorry we ever passed PNTR and I'll do my best to take it back."

Because of China's human rights violations, and their constant aggression towards our flights in INTERNATIONAL WATERS, I'm behind this represenative's idea in revoking China's trading status with the US and doing our best to keep them out of the WTO.”

“Jess to pick nits... the US flights were not over international waters. The waters are part of the widely respected 200 mile economic/coastal zone. The US accepts only a 12 mile air zone and by US principles the Plane was in international air space. Dem Chinese claim a 200 mile air space zone. According to the US media I've heard and read, the US is in the majority in respecting only a 12 mile air space zone.”

“5 steps to end the crisis (or how to really piss those commies off).

1. Revoke PNTR

2. Block all COSCO (China Overseas Shipping Company)ships from entering our ports.

3. Seize all COSCO ships currently in port until plane and personnel returned.

4. Rearm Japan.

5. Provide Taiwan with tactical nuclear weapons (hee hee that should really get their attention)”

“6. officially recognize Taiwan, ROC as the legitimate government of China.”

“Thanks, I forgot that one.”

“liamoconnor:

Spying is spying no matter how you clintonize your answer. Were you bubba's testimony coach?

If you provoke someone long enough they eventually will take a swing at you. We provoked, they swung and accidently connected. I certainly support our government obtaining intelligence for national security reason, but I also acknowledge spying is not a zero risk venture. Those 24 servicemen (yes, they are spies) and their superiors knew the risks and accepted them. If you want safer intelligence gathering then just sit in a nice upholstered chair at NSA headquarters in Maryland and listen to the satellite dish.

I hope no one here thinks because we are the U.S. the rules are different for us than anyone else.”

“isn't spying supposed to be clandestine? tough to do in a plane. i'm sure these personnel were wearing uniforms. sounds like war, not spying.”

“gordon = dumb”

“Wild Child,

I bet you keep pretty close tabs on your colon. Hard to miss with you head shoved so far up your DUMBA>S>S”

“Wild = Child²”

“Wild Child, I've agreed with you a lot in the past. But I have to say uhuh on this one. They were spying, in uniform and in full view of the Chinese. This kind of thing goes on all the time. Who knows if they were in international or Chinese waters? I don't, and I don't trust some media fu(k with 10 pounds of makeup to tell me. And this extends to public radio too. And I don't trust the Chinese version either. The truth is probably somewhere in between. You have to remember that this kind of non-clandestine spying happens all the time. We even do it to our closer, non-communist allies. All diplomatic attaches are 'spies' in some form or another.

One more thing: the US is apparently one of the most territorial in defending its airspace. This insight comes from my Air Force Commander uncle by the way, not some 'cowardly commie sh!t' or whatever Sulfuric calls me. We might've even shot them down if we thought they had flown into our airspace in Alaska or wherever. And don't think that Bush wouldn't have denied it or that their guys wouldn't have played big-tough-sh!tless-Texan either. It just so happened that this is the way things played out.”

“China has never liked us, since we killed thousands of them building the transcontentinal R.R. and did not even give them credit for it.!
N.C.R.R.”

“these things ALMOST happen too often. We only hear of the failures,not successes cause the successes never happen cause you never saw them and this conversation never occured,I was never here, I can neither confirm nor deny what you have or have not said.”

“Who just said that?”

“said what? all I hear is the quiet of plausible deniability.”

“Gordon:

First, I opposed Clinton in both elections, (and consequently, Gore as well). Now that my voting record and opposition is public, let's continue.

1. We were over international waters.

2. That Chinese pilot, (God rest his soul), has provoked US planes before, often coming within 2-3 feet of the Navy aircraft, and on one occasion, managed to flash his e-mail address to the US pilot. In effect, by flying right next to the US plane, he brought his fate on himself.

3. I'm not saying that the rules are different for the US. However, holding those 24 servicemen and women is tantamount to taking hostages. This whole crisis would diffuse itself if those crewmen come home.

4. The US should first revoke PNTR, however, I respectfully disagree with BASo4's idea of holding COSCO ships and personnel, rearming Japan, and especially giving the ROC any NBC capability.

5. Yes, those Navy fliers took a risk. However, it was China who has aggressed against our aircraft over international waters.

PedXing:

Incidently, if China did have a 200 mile coastal protection, that would extend far into Vietnam and Laos, and likely Cambodia. China may believe itself to have this radius of protection, but China also believes it has the right to commit human rights atrocities.”

“"The astronauts and the whales, they are our brothers."

That is funny as hell!!!!!!!!! (go read the whole d@mn thread to find it)

Liamoconner--where you a product of the Ulster Project?”

“F**k the economy (see bellow) and nuke there asses.


(China, makes a lot of techno crap that is sold to us, so if a company has every thin to build the product but some small piece of plastic the company can?t build the product, the company can?t sell it, the government can?t collect on it.)”

“No comment.”

“"No comment." a dumb hick from Missouri would have any thing intelligent to say anyway.”

“I heard something very interesting from a reliable source. You know the plane that collided with our spy plane? According to all rules of engagment, the engaging plane (chaseing plane) allways alighs off the rear center or rear left wing tip. From this position it is impossible to collide with the nose of the aircraft. So the Chinese pilot would have to have been breaking these rules and thus the colision is his fault.”

“Hey, JoeMama. I've only been in Missouri for a few months. Kiss my Irish ass you communist twinkle-toe puke.”

“I am WILD CHILD, not WILD CHLID!”

“My understanding is that the US respects the Chinese control of the waters - largely on economic grounds but does not respect Chinese control over the air space for the same region. I also understand that the US position is widely considered to be a sound one.

Secondly, my understanding of the 200 mile water control is that the country whose shore is closest to any given part of the ocean has the rights to that territory when it falls within more that one countries' zone.”