New Hampshire's White mountains in Septe mber

“nice site!”

“Maybe we can agree on a length of time to hike. Then 1 or more people can propose a basic itinerary which we can all discuss
and improve on. I'm sure it would be possible for some people to come start or finish earlier or later than others, as long as we have some pretty firm agreements about rendezvous points and places to leave messages.”

“MadRiver,Thanks for the site link. Looks great!”

“2 points of info.

Walkingdude. There is no camping above treeline on the Presidential range, unless you have a 2 foot snow base (to protect the lichens, mosses etc). At least 1/4 miles below treeline, 200 yards from water and a trail, and/or at a designated campsite. The valley wilderness areas have more liberal rules (Pemigewasset Valley, and Great Gulf Wilderness) but you are in a valley.

Point 2:

There is some confusion about starting and ending points with reference to towns. To help you get oriented on a map: hiking from the West to east/northeast:

Find Route 93/3 north of Route 112 (the Kangamnagus highway).
The Layfayette Place campground (and views of the Old Man in the MOuntain just beyond) is about midway between where 112 leaves to the east and Route 3 and 93 split (3 goes East and 93 goes west to St. Johnsbury). This area is where the trail heads leave the highway to the EAST to climb the Franconia ridge. To the west side of the higway are the Lonesome Lake/Kinsman trails.

Presumably you will head EAST off Route 93/3; hike the Franconia Ridge (Flume, Lincoln, Little Haystack, Layfette, Garfield, Galehead, N and S Twin etc and pop out on ROUTE 302 in Crawford Notch. After crossing Route 302 you head up onto the Southern Presidential Range (still hiking east northeast) climbing Clinton Eisenhower, Monroe and Washington. You can continue through to the Northern pres. Clay, Jefferson, Adams and Madison.

Gorham is not your starting point; it is near the end point.”

“Ignore Hyper's "big question". There's no way I'm tote'n this cutie pie through the mountains! I'm such a flatlander it would be all I could do to get myself up and down those hills. :^)

Besides, I wouldn't subject you all to a screaming baby unless we were specifically invited to bring her. Some may enjoy the peace and quiet found while backpacking. 'Course if Raddy goes I've heard there won't be much of that anyways! (Teasing)”

“Lee.. thanks for filling in some details and clarifications about the hike I was thinking of.

By Gorham, I really meant coming out a bit east of Gorham on Rt. 2. If you click on the camping info on Mad Rivers link (above) you can get a decent overview of the trek by clicking on "overview map" on the left column, under "In Depth").

Some camping restrictions change from time to time... one area gets determined to be over camped, and another recovers. we'll have to double check the rules sometime down the line.”

“Since Falling Waters Trail and Old Bridle Path Trail leave from the same parking lot, you can bypass Mt. Little Haystack and Mt. Lincoln and just climb Mt. Lafayette over to Mt. Garfield and camp on the eastern slope of Garfield where there are tent platforms. You can either camp the next day at Ethan Pond by Crawford Notch, or if you are adventurous, you can camp at Nauman tent platform on Mt. Pierce (Clinton) near the Mizpah Hut. The following day you can climb Mt. Washington and head to Mt. Madison or hike down the eastern slope of Washington and camp near the Harvard Cabin. You have many options for a great hike in the Whites.


Another option is to hike the Lincoln Woods Trail off the Kancamagus. You would hike over the Bonds, which is in the Pemigewasset wilderness and camp at Mt Guyot Campsite. The next day you can either head to Nauman or to Ethan Pond and then continue your hike to Washington.”

“Pre-thanx for ALL your endevors.
JOY, RAD ROTFLMAO. He is a good boy. Bring the baby, I can help sit! grandpabear? lol”

“Whites in September sounds fantabulous! Count me in with a 90 percent chance. It is a 5.5-6 hour drive for me, with a lot of carpooling potential as I live just off I-84.”

“While it is true that you are required to stay in the huts or the backcountry campgrounds, it is a rule that is unenforceable both in concept and in fact. These campgrounds may or may not have a caretaker, and he can't spend his time running an hour up to the ridgeline to see if anybody couldn't make in it before nightfall. We just told the caretaker at the Haystack campground we had had to spend the night on the ridge. What was he going to do, arrest us? And how would he get us back down the mountain if we refused to be arrested? The campground on Kinsman had no caretaker at all during the day. You must remember that it is a long, hard walk from one designated camping or lodging spot to another. There are not enough AMC employees to police the ridges, and they are not going to kill themselves for $8/hour.
Yes, you should stay in the campgrounds. But if you can't, don't sweat it.”

“Okay this one is far enough in advance that I should be able to make arrangements to go. I cannot remember seeing the exact dates anywhere so for my sake could you give up the dates again?”

“Starting on Aug. 31 I think Spam.”

“You are correct, Sipsey, that there are not enough caretakers to police the entire White Mountains. As long as one show some level of respect for the forest and its vegetation, no one is going to arrest you for camping in a non-designated campsite. I have encountered a number of backcountry campers in my travels, and they have all followed the rules pertaining to backcountry camping set forth by the WMNF, i.e. "leave no trace". As far as camping above treeline, the weather can change so dramatically in the Whites that camping above treeline is risky at best.”

“Ped what kind of time frame are you avaliable for? Spam it will be great to finally meet you, all the southern belles, I'm mean guys that I met spoke very highly of you. LOL. Seems like we have a great group of people interested. I think Pedxing is right we need to nail down how much time each of us are avaliable for, then we can make some trip plans. As I said before I'm good to go with over a week, I'm more concerned about others who are traveling from farther away. WD how long did you plan on coming up for? How about you Spam how long can you stay? Jerbear, bring all you extra gear you can sell it in North Conway for sure. LOL”

“BEAR SALE! fs lol I will most likly fly in, somwhere or who knows I may drive and make a month out of it. Looks like Nova scotia not far away! Yo bear!”

“Allowing for travel time cause I'm most likely to drive I will probably be good for about 5 days of hiking.”

“Can I come too? I'd like to bring my domestic partner with me into nature's most beautiful spots. We enjoy spending time together outdoors, where nature reveals her true emotions.”

“Just let me know iffin you are coming bud cause iffin you are then I ain't!”

“Also, just setting up tents, especially with a group can cause a lot of damage in an area especially slow growing high altitude places.

I have emergency camped in high altitide forbidden palces... but only when I had real significant safety concerns. I picked secure nicely protected places and was very careful not to tromp around any more than absolutely necessary.

Furthermore, high altitude camping is only OK environmentally if almost no one else is doing it.



IMHO, planning on camping above the tree line or other sensitive areas (except for lean to's and designated campsites) is just plain irresponsible. Doing it at the last minute when there is a big safety issue is just plain common sense.”

“? Just what are these Pads that they want you to set up on?”

“A lot of it is lean-to's, tent platforms, and cabins. Occaisionally there are designated areas for camping on the ground...where the damage is confined to already worn out spots.”

“Thanks!”

“Ped, I've been looking at the map.....oh nonot that! If we do start on the old bridle path and hike north, what would you suggest as good stopping places for our group. I know its tough stuff getting up on top but its much easier when you are up there so it seems to me the first day may be short and then we can pick it up when we are on top. We might have to stay at a hut at least once. What do yoiu think about this, feedback please, I'm thinking like first day garfield ridge campsite, 2nd day Ethan pond campsite, 3rd day lakes of the clouds hut, 4th day cross all the high peaks and end up on the other side of madison somewhere and then day 5 hike out....what are you thinking, talk to me. With this in mind people could bail out after Mt Washington and go down the great gulf widerness trail and leave from rt 16 if they didn't want to spend the extra day. WD, 5 days in the woods would mean you fly into Manchester on friday night and we all start hiking Saterday morning from the parking lot and get out on the otherside by rt 2 on Wednesday and you take a flight home safely say Thursday afternoon. What do you think guys”

“Yeah Pete, That's about what I was thinking. 5 days is a damn good trip! I've ordered the Map book for the Whites last night so I'll be able to keep up with the places yall are talking about soon. For the people that have experience in the area, I got 100% faith in whatever you call in planning. Are we talking about doing a loop or a shuttle?

Ped,
How far are you from Manchester? I can fly in Friday or whenever is best for the rest of the gang to get hooked up.”

“I'm gonna throw out a plan or two here. I'm sure we can improve on it, but responding to Sirpetes this is a concrete plan that y'all can can whip into better shape. Option #2 sticks with the AT.

Friday:
#1) Camp out and assemble at Lafayette Place Campground. This is pretty much right where I-93 meets the old Birdle Path.

#2) Hike 2.6 miles uphill to Liberty Spring Tentsite. It will help if some people get an early start and claim sites for late comers. Its about 1/2 mile to the peak of Mt. Liberty (5,249 feet)- great views can be had there.

Saturday:

#1: 6.4 mile hike to the side trail for Garfield Ridge Camp Site (trail is about .1 mile)

#2: 7.7 mile hike to side trail for Garfield Ridge Campsite. Early on in this hike its possibl to drop your pack and hike .3 miles each way to get to the peak of Mt. Lincoln.”

“Sunday:

#1) Garfield Ridge to Zealand Falls Hut: 9.7 miles

#2) GR to Ethan Pond Campsite: 14.5 miles

Alternatives are:

Guyot campsite: 5.5 miles with .7 mile detour.

Should be lots of legal camping along this stretch (below treeline and >200 ft. off of the trail).”

“Monday:

#1) Nauman tentsite... 14.1 miles from Zealand hut.

#2) Lake of Clouds Hut, 14,1 miles from Ethan Pond.”

“Tuesday:

#1: Nauman to Valley Way tent site: 12.4 (or 11.8 to Madison Springs hut)

#2: Lake of Clouds to Pinkham Notch visitors center 14.8 miles (or Osgood tent site at 10 miles)”

“#1 End up at Rt. 16 at Pinkham notch visitors center after an esy 7.8 mile hike.

#2 It would take 20.9 miles of hiking (divided between Wed and part of Thursday?) to get to Rt.
2. This could entail 13.1 miles to impcamp site on wed and a downhill 7.8 on Thursday.”

“Alright, I'm too tired to work the rest of this out tonight. Got too tired earlier... too many interuptions (even if many of them were pleasant)... but hopefully this provides some parameters for discussion and improvement and corrections.”

“I'm impressed PedXing. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Whites, but you gave a nice breakdown of a doable five-day hike. You are all going to have a wonderful time.”

“Heck I'm tired just reading the plan! Wheeeew!”

“Well, of course you should not trample vegetation when camping above treeline. I would only camp in bare areas or those which have obviously been used before. Trying to force people to stay in primitive lodges with no plumbing, no lights, snooty employees, bad food and then charging them $60-$70 a night is off the table as far as I'm concerned. Add to this the fact that the president of AMC makes over 6 figures a year and you can see why so many people have a problem with AMC. $6-8 a night for a campsite is one thing, what the AMC is doing with their huts is quite another.”

“Thanks MadRiver...

I've done a bunch of hiking in the Whites, but have usually stayed away from the AT. Since I got into section hiking in '99, I've confined myself to Maine (but I'm almost done with Maine, having done the 250 miles in the middle but missing about 15 miles at each end) and am happy to be doing a good sized NH section.

As you see my earlier mileage estimates were off. (i wuzz wonderin' why it seemed to take so long to do so few miles! LOL!). There are short cut options and I think there are places we can balance our mileage by camping out legally between shelters and sites.”

“Dude I'll be living about 45 minutes (mostly to the south) from Manchester Airport.”

“Sipsey --

First let me say that, even though I won't be able to participate, I am thrilled that a White Mtn TT trip is being organized. I don't want to do anything to throw the discussion off track, so I will only make the following comments regarding your post of 4/11/01 10:11 am, and then I will leave it alone.

I have climbed in the White mtns for 30 years (age 5 through now). I have done a full hut traverse, stayed at the huts on an occasional overnight basis, used the Madison tent platforms, the Nuaman platforms, Hermit Lake, camped in the Pemiggawasset and Great gulf many many times.

1. The lodges are "primtive" so that they "sit lightly on the land". If you want electricty, and flush toilets (which some do have) and hot water then stay home or go to a Holiday Inn. There are gas lamps until 9:00 then it is lights out. Most people use the huts for the collegiality and meeting people of like mind. Clearly, not to meet people like you.

2. The employees are college kids. It attracts a lot of the "earthy crunchy" types from New England private colleges (eg. Bates, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Brown etc.) They are by and large good kids who can outpack, outhike, outcarry, out backcountry rescue 90% of the folks on this board. Except for large non-persishble food drps by helicopter early inthe season they pack all the food in, and all the waste out on their backs. Your "snooty" observation was way off base, undeserved and uninformed. These kids are bright, enthusiastic and care about the environment in which they work.

3. The food is generally good, but can be spotty. All the huts get the same "rations" for the week and they try to make leftovers go a long way. I have always enjoyed what I have been served. Again, trying to mitigate the impact of massive food transport. The meal you didn't like was lugged up the hill on that "snooty" hutpersons back.

4. YOu are not forced to stay in the huts. You can hike off the ridge and stay at a platform.

5. I don't know jack about what the head of AMC is paid. But I will bet my left nut that the organization has done infinitely more for the preservation of the alpine enviroment in the Whites than you have

6. From your casual observations regarding the timberline rules and how easy it was to circumvent them, coupled with the AMC crew members real focus on reminding people to stick to the paths and stay off the moss and lichens, I would hazard a guess that someone rubbed you the wrong way and you have decided that all the AMC rules and associated 'crap' don't apply to you.

Hikers with your attitude should stay the hell out of the mountains and spend your time at timeshares in Ft. Walton Beach.”

“PS: To those of you thining of using the huts . . .BRING EARPLUGS!! It is a fact of life that you are in either a bunk room (stacked 4 high) with 36 of your closest friends, or, in the case of a larger hut (Mzpah and Lakes) a smaller room, but still 15 people. SNORING!!!! At Lakes last Septemeber 1 guy kept the whole bunkroom awake all night. I have never heard anything like it.”

“Last word from me with Dipsey:

"Well, of course you should not trample vegetation when camping above treeline. I would only camp in bare areas or those which have obviously been used before. "

So . . 2 WRONGS do make a right???

Hey ... if everyone else has already trashed an off limits area, then its a-okay for me to do it too!"

You suck donkey dong.”

“Gee Lee, your response was so much more colorful than mine.

I have this bias about trying to educating first, derogating later. But the point is that jsu because a site has been harmed doesn't mean that it can't be further harmed. Bare areas can recover too, and there are often things (like lichen) in bare areas that do matter. Using places that have obviously been used before does further damage, and prevents recovery.

BTW: I'm hoping that someone like you who knows the Whites, especially the areas we are talking about will take the time to educate those of us who post information, ideas and plans here when the time comes. (PS: yer derogation is welcome too, as long as yer funny).”

“Wow these can be campfire topics.;>”

“don't hold back, Lee...tell us how ya feel. LOL!

>;oP

Seems like it's shapin' up to be a good trip...I think.”

“Certiannly, will b one you remember, gaureenteed! Yo beaR!”

“Lee, as someone who hikes the White almost exclusively, I do agree with your sentiments about the AMC and their caretakers, as well as the need to respect the environment. Most of the hikers I encounter are considerate people whose only crime is not understanding the damage one thoughtless act can have on an ecosystem's ability to recover. When I hike, I always carry an extra garbage bag just in case I happen upon some trash that was accidentally dropped or carelessly discarded. It just takes a minute to pick it up, while it might take years to absorb the damage.”

“To Pedxing/AmyG and those who will be on the trip --

Don't be put off by my abrasiveness . . .remember . . .I WON'T actually be on the trip with you!!!!! And I certainly don't want to sow any seeds of devisiveness amongst those who will be together!

I will stay tuned and offer what perspective I can.

Once you sort your route out I will look for any overlap with what my plans will be for the weekend of Sept 8th (somewhere in the Galehead/Garfield area, which, by the sounds of it, you will have hiked beyond at that point).

Have fun planning!”

“BTW Lee, I meant yer derogation of me/my ideas is welcome if'n' yer funny. I;ll try not to pass too much judgement or gas regarding yer manner in derogating others.

Anyway, than you Mad and Lee fer yer inputs.”

“a good trip...I think.
AmyG
1:22:37 PM
4/11/01

therefore you prolly is.”

“I ain't askeert of no beeeg bad wolf(s)!
grrrr

;o)”

“Hey 'gaybud' -
Don't fall for Wild Child's/Tarpy's story about only having brought a bivy.”

“Hi all,

I'm the guy who runs the White Mountain Server (at Dartmouth)which was referenced earlier in the thread. Sounds like a great trip you have planned.

Some suggestions:

1) Pick your Saturday night stay carefully. Anything close to the road will fill up early and you'll be shunted to the "overflow" camping areas which are less nice. Liberty Springs, Guyot, and Nauman fill up very early, so get there first, then go bag the peaks.

2)Stay at Guyot. The Bonds are a spectacular area with the best views in the Whites. Don't miss them, spend the night. But watch your food, the mice up there are amazing.

3)Don't follow the AT through Crawford Notch, instead take the A-Z trail over Mt Tom from Zealand Hut. Spend the night in the Crawford Hostel, it's cheap and comfy.

4) You can make reservations for the Dungeon, the hiker refuge under Lakes of the Clouds, up to 48 hours in advance. If you can do this, it's a real nice way to break up the Presidentials. If not, go from Crawford (or Nauman) to the Perch, one of the RMC shelters/campsites. The Perch is the only RMC site that has camping. There is really no place to camp between Mizpah and the Perch in summer.

5) Don't rush the Northern Presidentials. There are 4 RMC facilities, the Valley Way tentsite, the Osgood Ridge tentsite, and designated campsites along the Great Gulf trail which deserve explorations. Take an extra day here.

6) Carter Notch Hut is run on caretaker basis year round. This means you carry your food and cook it there in their kitchen. It's a great way to break up the Wildcat/Carter ridge which is much more difficult than it looks on the map and one of the only places to stay.

7) Prepare yourself for crowds. If you are far enough before leaf season you should be OK, but don't expect to be alone.

8) Expect bad weather and plan accordingly. The Presidential and Franconia Ridges often get weather that is impossible to hike in. Keep flexible and have backup plans.

9) Get the AMC White Mountain Guide and the Tyvex maps. It's the best guide for the Whites.

10) Have fun.”

“Also, the WMNF backcountry regs are online at: http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/white/recreation/land_above/backcountry_rules.html

You can camp anywhere not prohibited by the rules. In practice, it's often easier to use the offical sites, but there's lots of camping to be had.

In lower terrain, like the Pemi, it's very easy to find campsites. In high terrain it's often impossible.”