New Hampshire's White mountains in Septe mber

“Gee, Lee. I didn't think any of my remarks would get me an offer like that! I am not uninformed, as I did spend a week on the trail in the Whites which was a 90-95 percent good experience. Various huts where the college kids running therm were at best, civil. Maybe snooty was the wrong word. Unfriendly might be closer to the mark. I did meet some I considered to be well informed, and doing a good job. I do not make a practice of trampling vegetation or any of the other things you mentioned. Nor is my attitude toward the environment casual. I do fairly arduous trail work for free, pick up trash, clean up stuff left by others, and try to behave myself in general. I am not alone in my sentiments, I heard much complaining in the Whites about the way the AMC is handling there, even from the employees who were, in my opinion, being taken advantage of. And I am obviously not objecting to the primitive nature of the accomodations, or I wouldn't be backpacking in the first place. I just don't like the fact that AMC can impose outrageous prices on people who have no alternative. Nor did I call any of their rules "crap," or decide that they didn't apply to me. I followed them as well as I physically could during the time I was there, and when forced to camp, picked places that obviously were well used. I don't mind being reminded what the rules of the road are, I just don't like being charged heavily to use something that's supposed to belong to all of us. If it were going to the people who do the work, it would different. I couldn't see that it was.

Oh, yeah. I don't like Fort Walton Beach. And if I want to return to New Hampshire, I will do so.

As far as the ludicrous insult is concerned, I only wish it were that big!

Chill out. I am not a troll trashing the landscape.”

“Not to jump into the middle of this, but the FS sets the camping rules, not the AMC, or the RMC, or the DOC, or the WODC, or any of the other trail maintainence orgs in the Whites.

IMO, whether the huts were there or not, you wouldn't be allowed to camp above treeline, or in the Cutler River drainage, or in Franconia Notch State Park.”

“My first thought after reading telemark's recommnedations is that the Guyot site might be a decent and more ambitious goal for Saturday. First hikers to get there could set up for the slower ones, thus maximizing our chances of having whatever space we need.”

“Telemark --

For what its worth I echo your sentiments with regard to the Bonds. If I am remembering correctly, were they the rounded sort of grassy/green peaks? If I've got the right group, the closest I've come to it since was hiking in the northern Lake District in England . . .rolling close cropped grass (from sheep in that case), with granite boulders . . .just beautiful.

If you continue to lend advice, this group should be in good shape. The paths,peaks, terrain and tent sites tend to get scambled in my memory; especially if I don't have a map in front of me.”

“Ped I agree with you about our first night. In fact we may want to make it a point to send out some of the more abitious and fast hikers (like WD40) who don't stop for nuthin....ahead of the sight see'rs LOL, just kidding WalkinDude. Our plans are starting to come together, I really appreciate your input Telemark, Madriver and Lee, with your help I think we are going to have a great trip with a great group of TT'ers!”

“Yea, what sirpete says!”

“If you go to my trip reports page (http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/whites/trips.html) you'll find pictures and descriptions and some maps for nearly all of the terrain you want to cover.

The Bonds are pretty varied. Mt Bond itself is kind of rounded, just barely above treeline, but it's a big tall thing in the middle of a huge area. Bondcliff has some spectacular cliffs, and West Bond is an isolated sharp peak with a summit rock only a few feet across. The rolling green hills sounds more like Guyot, which is at the intersection of the Twinway and Bondcliff trails.

I'll check in fairly often, you can also contact me from my website.”

“Telemark-

I had a great snowshoe hike on the Welch-Dickey trail a few weeks ago...
I had read your report beforehand, which gave me some idea of expectations. Great report, great site you've got there.

Thanks! :o)”

“Telemark


I have a quick question. I read your trip report of the Bonds and Twins, and you mentioned that you "reserved" or "secured" platforms for your friends who we coming later even though the platforms are on a first-come, first-serve basis. I plan on doing the Bonds the second week of June during the week so I was wondering if there could be a case where I would arrive early at the Mt. Guyot campsite only to be told that there were no platforms available even if there were only one or two people actually at the site?


I've never encountered this problem, but your trip report got me thinking about whether a large group could secure spots for hikers who were coming later. The White Mountain trip being planned on this thread mentioned they could "secure" spots for slower hikers so they might need to know what the "rules" are pertaining to securing spots for others.”

“On issues about sticking with the AT versus taking shorter routes, I think different people can take make their own decisions. People who are fast enough and want the extra hiking, and/or want to complete a strict AT section hike might want to avoid "blue blazing."

This goes for the A-Z trail vs. the AT @Crawford notch )mentioned by Telemark as item 3) in an earlier post.”

“Would anyonr like to send me a map? I will reimburse! Thanks!
Jerry Mcgraw
251 Blackberry RD
Dayton, OH 45431”

“ok Bear I'll get out some info right away”

“Thanks, BUD! Er, sire Pete!LOL”

“All we did was to put our packs on an empty platform and set our tent up on another. It's pretty loose, just check in with the caretaker and tell him or her what you are doing.

Someone will have to be there to "reserve" a site. It's really more like claiming space. I imagine if one person was trying to "claim" 10 spots while the rest were hiking they might get into trouble. But if you are just grabbing a free tent platform for someone arriving later, that seems pretty accepted procedure.

If it is really crowded, you might be asked to or consider sharing a platform with someone else. Even if the site is supposed to take two two-person tents, you can often fit three on there if you are cosy.

Best bet, don't plan on Guyot for a Saturday night.”

“Thanks telemark


I'm way ahead of you on Guyot; I plan on doing an overnighter there on Tuesday or Wednesday night. I doubt my friend who was suppose to join me will make it, so I would rather do the Bonds during the week. Since this is my first time over the bonds, I want a clear day so I put in a request to the big guy for decent weather.”

“Hey Pete and Dude! Thanks fer comin up with the idea and posting it. As ya kin tell I'm gettin into it!

I'm wondering:

1) If some of the days I have outlined (even for the more consevative version) might not be too ambitious for some people. I took an informal poll of people at work (in Concord NH) and a bunch of folk thought it was too arduous. Should we try to be less ambitious?

A) How would 6 full days work for people?

B) Would starting at the north end of the hike work better in terms of not getting crowded out of sites?

C) What about starting easy and ending up at Guyot on Sunday night?

D) Should we knock of the the northern 20 miles and finish at the end of the Presidentials? This leaves us North of Mt. Washington, but well south of Gorham. Once we hit Mount Washington, there are all kinds of trails leading to Pinkham notch much more quickly than the AT does (since the AT goes through the northern Presidentials. This could leave us with a variety of easy options for cutting the trip short and still ending up at the Pinkham notch visitors center.

I know that multi day plans almost always change on the trail and that we may split into sub-groups which move at different rates or take alternate routes to the same destination. Splitting up will be especially likely if we end up with a lot of folks.”

“BTW Mad River, is that (Mad River) your favorite ski area.... ofr camping area or....?”

“Ped,
I consider myself a pretty strong BPer. I feel I could hang with the group no matter what the decision but others may wanna cruise and "smell the roses" a little more. I've never been to the area before so I'll prolly be snapping lots of pics. Maybe our miles should stay between 8 to 12 mile days to keep a happy medium.
I hope we have some "rough" weather while there. From what I'm reading, That's one of the standards of the Whites. I want to experience typical White Mountains so I can truly say, "Been there, Done that".”

“I think that the first day may be a bit much. I have been counting the hiking hours in the White Mts. guide and it looks like if we are to go to Goyout (sp? I'm at work) they show it taking about 10 hrs conservatively, that may be a little much I don't know. I think I might do a slack pack trip this summer for 2 days to see what it's like. cruise in hike to the site, stay over and then hike out the next day or do Franconia to Crawford if I can get another car or person to go.......hint hint hint.”

“Some of the terrain in question is very rough and all the ups and downs don't show on the maps. A few of the days outlined are pretty ambitious, but all doable by someone in good shape and used to carrying a full pack.

Unless you are on the flatter terrain like Wilderness Trail, I'd try to keep your days at 10 miles or less. People generally average between 1 and 1.5 MPH on backpacking trips 'round these parts. Granted, you guys might be faster than that.

Weather will also dictate your speed. Some days you might get pinned down, since travel above treeline (Franconia and Presidentials) is nearly impossible in storm conditions.

If I had six days, I'd spend the nights at Garfield Ridge, Guyot, Crawford Hostel, the Perch, and a wilderness campsite along the Great Gulf trail. It's ambitious, but it hits my favorite spots along the way.”

“SirPete, I might be up to hiking with you for a w/e at some earlier point, especially if you don't mind one or both of my sons coming along. My 14 year old is a hardened trail ho. Last year he dragged me along for a 22 mile day on the AT going North into Monson with full packs - mighta gone farther if he didn't keep having to wait up for this old fart). My other son isn't so trail hardened but could handle a two day slack pack alright.

Wouldn't mind linkin' up with other folk either.”

“your on....let's see when winter ends up there and set it up. I have no problem hiking with kids they might even teach me a lesson or two.”

“I got my Maps & Book in today. They musta screwed up at Adverturoustraveler.com cause I got two packages in the mail and they were the same thing. Two for the price of one! Can't beat that!
Now to go back and study what yall have been talking about.”

“I got my Maps & Book in today. They musta screwed up at Adverturoustraveler.com cause I got two packages in the mail and they were the same thing. Two for the price of one! Can't beat that!
Now to go back and study what yall have been talking about.”

“what a joke. you get two in the mail and you post your message twice. You couldn't have planned that if you wanted to. Hey why don't you send the other one to Jerbear!”

“Yeah Pete, That was cool!
I'll do better than that, I'll just give him one at Fiery Gizzard. I ment to give him something for his birthday anyhow.
SHHHHHH! Don't tell him though. It'll be a suprise.”

“It looks like a sh!t load of loop Possibilities on the map.”

“LOL....Yeah mums the word here. The possibilities are endless, as endless as the views in those mts. Looks like me, Ped and sons are gunna hook up later when things are warmer up there for a w-e slack pack trip and check out some of the area. I think we are going to have a great time I can't wait.”

“Yep! Looks like a awesome trip in the making!”

“I've been checking out the map and reading the book. It looks like a fun place. I got a few questions.

Are the AT shelters for reservation only too?
How can a thru-hiker plan on reserving a hut or campsite when he's been on the trail for weeks?
What exactly is a lean-to? Is it the same as a Shelter?
How big are the Tent Platforms?



Also, I was looking at the trails. There is a massive network of trails out there. We could do a loop of almost any length or diffaculty! I like the Idea of starting at Crawford Notch SP and taking the AT over and down to Nelson Crag Trail. Get back on the AT and return via Dry River Trail.
It looks to be 40 to 45 miles.
How would that be?”

“PedXing:

My MadRiver moniker comes from the Mad River that runs from Waterville Valley past our vacation home in Thornton.”

“The AMC huts are reservation only. There are usually 2-4 spots per hut per night for thru-hikers to work for food and lodging, but it varies. No one should plan on staying there.

A lean-to is a shelter. Usually they are standard three sided structures but some have partly enclosed front walls and sleeping shelves. There are pictures of most on my website.

There are no reservations at shelters or campsites, it's all first-come first-served. The two exceptions to that are Hermit Lake where you have to pick up a ticket at Pinkham and the Dungeon under Lakes of the Clouds, where you can reserve up to 4 spots up to 48 hours in advance.

Tent platforms are about 10'x10', but they vary. Most will fit two 2-person tents.

The loop you mentioned is fine, but the problem is finding places to stay. There's no camping on the east side of Mt Washington allowed, so you have to spend the night in Hermit Lake or down at Pinkham. There's also no hiking along the ridge, so you have to go from Nauman Tent sites (near Mizpah Springs Hut) to Pinkham in one day. The Dry River has lots of places to camp. I'm not sure of the loop you are describing, where would you get back on the AT? I'd go up Boott Spur and down the Davis Path myself.”

“Have firm plans to walk the 150-mile Kohoes Trail (from the Whites to Canada)commencing 15 Aug with my buddy, Mr. Misery. Maybe on the way back...?

BTW, was in the Catskills last weekend. Saw where Buddur and Amy G. singed the register at Denning Trailhead (2/16). There was still 3-4 feet of snow on the ground (and thunderstorms.. yuck). We had to strap on snowshoes just to take a leak. I remember when TT'ers were there because I was on an overnight to Fire Island Nat. Seashore at that time.. conditions were ferocious.”

“Might I add that its a heck of a hike back up from the Hermit Lake site... (and not such an easy one down either) if you are coming from the high trails... and that Pinkham is a little further down from Hermit.

There is a hiker's room atop mount washington, with some facilities where hiker's can hang out, repack or take shelter in emergencies. There is also a cafeteria there at the top.

The cog railway can be used for less than $50 dollars round trip for those who wish to stay at the Mt. Washington Hotel (rooms should be available for as little as $329 per night for two... including breakfast and dinner!!).”

“No Cog for me....I'll be hiking down off those Mts! I have to tell ya Dude. You are getting some great info here about sites and travel up on those Mts. The Whites are a very rugged and steep terain. It is difficult enough getting on top and hike the peaks let alone doing loops that take you down the sides and back up again.”

“Pete/Ped-
I'm up for a preliminary test-the-waters kind of gig in the whites! What dates are you thinking of going?
June is looking wide open for me, as of now.

packrat-
Cool that you're doing the cohos trail. From what I have read, it is awesome - great for solitude and wildlife sighting. Which peaks did you bag in the Cats?”

“telemark
It looks like the Nelson Crag Trail leaves the AT just south of the Mt Washington Auto Road. It heads back up to the top of Mt Washington and from there, catch the AT down to Lake of the Clouds.
My map is using that damn metric system. How do these elevation gains translate into feet? Are we talking a little 3500 ft gain from Crawford Notch to the top of Mt Washington? That's not so tough.”

“LOL”

“I can see now that as usual I will be the one toted behind WD by the long rope!”

“LOL Pete! I really thought the Crand Canyon would be a KILLER comming back out but it wasn't that bad at all. That was over 5000 ft in a day.”

“Amy....I told Pedxing that I will be in Wisconsin from the 25th of May through the 2nd of June. Any time ofter that I am cool on. I would be looking at driving up after a 1/2 day of work on Friday, camp out overnight and then do a hike saturday and sunday. I will need to be back in Bethlehem for work on Monday though. We can travel together if you want....or not it's up to you.”

“Yeah, A recon trip. Yall do that.”

“AmyG

If you are planning a preliminary hike in June, be aware that it is "Biker Week" in NH from the weekend of the 9th through the 17th. Although the Bikers generally takeover the Laconia area, they do migrate north. If you are camping at a National Forest camping ground, you might have some company. There is a large contingent of French Canadians who attend the rally every year. If you do plan on coming and wouldn't might some company for a long day hike, my wife and I would be love to join you.”

“Trails in the Whites don't generally map 1-to-1 on the difficulty scale with other areas in the US. I figure there are three reasons:

1) Rocks. Most trails in the Presidentials are just piles of rocks, with no real foot bed. It's very hard on the feet, especially descending.

2) Switchbacks. Never heard of them, don't need them. Actually, the Daks are worse in this respect, but not by much.

3) Weather. Mt Washington averages 1 day in three with any sunshine. The wind is nearly always a factor, and cold rain and snow are possible any time of year.

Some people just run up and down Washington with no problem, you might be one of those folks. But my experience with people coming to the Whites for the first time is that 10 miles/day with a full pack is about all you should plan on.”

“Mad, thanks for the reminder about Biker Week. I've regretted forgetting about that before... mostly by running into lots of unexpected traffic on small, usually lonely roads. I guess I've tried to go to the Whites around Biker week for the same time they schedule biker week for then: the weather is already pretty good and the tourist season hasn't started yet.

From your experience, do you think it would be worth postponing the trip until the w/e of the 23rd or 30th of June. Or do you think it will work fine if we stick with places pretty easily accessible from I-93. I don't imagine too many bikers camp overnight far from the roads and their bikes.”

“Alpha... I hope we get a Cohos trip report from you... Maybe a link-up will be doable, I hope you'll think about it as travel dates near.”

“Biker week? Hell, that's right up aimee gee's alley, man!”

“Dude,

Looking and thinking about the loop you mentioned (12:08:44 AM
4/14/01)... I've got a couple questions beyond the problem of camping/shelter scarcity.

I think it, or something close to it is doable. It depends partly on whether we want to do a loop or a traverse.

One advantage of a traverse is that you see more peaks and terrain. The loop you mentioned ommitts the nice stretch from Liberty to Guyot and omitts the Presidentials north of Mt. Washington.

The biggest advantage of a loop is that it takes us back to our cars and we don't have to worry about pre-positioning some cars and shuttling back and forth (or catching a bhuttle bus or a ommercial bus).

I lean towards a traverse, but I think people who are traveling a greater distance should have more say in this. And then of course there is the fact that this idea started with you and Sirpete.”

“PedXing

I doubt you will encounter any bikers at a Mountain campsite. They just seem to camp and head to Laconia and the lakes region during the day. I always take a week off from work during biker week because I do find so many bikers in one area interesting. Besides, there is something about an outlaw biker babe in leather chaps riding a Harley that makes my knees go week. Wifey is ok with that because she knows any self-respecting outlaw biker babe isn't going to be interested in a guy who hikes in wool knickers and British tweeds *lol*. By the way, since I am going to be in NH for that week if you want to do some hiking let me know. Wifey would prefer that I hike with someone rather than go solo. I will be doing an overnighter at Galehead with wifey and my sister the weekend of the 9th. After that, I am free to do an overnighter or just a day hike. I am very flexible that week.”

“Wool Knickers and Tweeds! Exactly what I wear when I wanna pick a hot Biker Chick in black leather. Works 80% of the time.

Probably wouldn't work as well if I was under 40.”