New Hampshire's White mountains in Septe mber

“off for a 25 miler.”

“Alright Sirpete!!! Enjoy!”

“YAHOOOOOOO!!!!!
Less than a month away!!!!!”

“My bud Jerry is in for 4 days, through Tuesday. Ped how long will you be out there with us?”

“What about your other bud, Sirpete? Is he in for the long haul?”

“don't know yet he's still not commiting to anything.”

“Hey, what is the real itenerary? September may open up for us and we may come along for the weekend.”

“I am planning on being there until Wed.”

“I am back! Now do we have a trip? Sure, fill me in! Yo bear!”

“Hey UK and Bear!!!

Update:

People coming:
Walkindude
SirPete (and one or two friends)
Jerbear
Me (and probably my son)

Hopefully:
UK and his sweetheart
AmyG (but prolly not)
Anybuddy else?

The plan, as it stands now is to meet up at Crawford notch early Saturday morning (9/1/01). If the weather seems OK, we'd head north for a presidential traverse. Saturday would be a short day bringing us to the Naumann tentsite. People with eager feet can do a little slack packing after setting up tent space. Sunday would be a 10 mile day bringing us across Washington to some place like the Perch. Monday would bring us out of the Presidentials and we'd drive out to start a hike that would take us through Franconia ridge.

If the weather doesn't look good, then we might start with Franconia Ridge and/or the Pemi's depending on how things look and then try for the Presidentials again later.

I've reserved a campsite at Crawford (see the link on my post for 7/27) for Friday night (8/31). Its the most convenient place to camp for an early start on Saturday. I'm hoping all, most or at least some of us can set up there Friday... to make the Saturday morning start easier and possibly to pre-position a car.”

“Well, since I am trying to sell the idea of this camp site... here is the link again:

camp site info with link to reservations”

“Ped-Iwill be at the campsite fri the 31st. Of course I will share the expense. What type of milage did we come up with and do we have any map cordinates so as I can look at this hike?”

“Sorry I can't make this one. It sounds like a great trip with good people.

Maybe next time.”

“Jer... sounds good.
Since there is a two car limit per space, if other's are thinking of staying at the site it might be good to have another space reserved.

I was billed 13$ for one site, so I guess that includes the reservation fee (earlier I said it was 13 dollars, plus a 3$ reservation fee).

Sorry you ain't comin Viol... If you want, send an e- if you head up to the Whites on the off chance that we might be able to work out a hike together.”

“Jer.. what map do you have. I don't have official coordinates handy, but could give you some info to help you find it on whatever map you have.”

“Trail names would suffice.And I know it could all change!”

“I think that 10 mile day is the longest day.”

“That's ten miles a day Jer, not 10 packs.......LOL. Remember you are welcome to stay in PA. with us for a layover if you need on your way up. Just let me know, me casa es su casa. I will be picking up Mark in Newark after 4 on Friday the 31st and we are going up from there. Of course we will be hitting a few side shows......Campmor and cruise by the Statue of Liberty. We should be up there likely a little after midnight depending on how much we goof off at Campmor....the Statue....well ya seen one bit@h you seen'em all.”

“I wanna look up her dress and see if she got a gig ole Kooter. hehehehe”

“Well here are some notations about the itinerary for the Presidentials:

Day one of Presidential Traverse:

Destination MizpahHut/Nauman Tentsite:

Possible Routes
Alternate #1: Dry River trail to Mt. Clinton trail to Nauman? about 6 miles, crosses no peaks? allow 4+ hours.

Alternate #2: Webster Jackson to Webster Cliff to N.? via Mt. Jackson (but not Webster) 4.3 miles.
#2a Webster Jackson to Webster Cliff to N. via Mt. Webster and Jackson 5.6 miles.

Alternate # 3 Crawford path to Mizpah cutoff 2.4 miles? Allow 2+ hours

Alternate #4: : Webster Cliff trail about 6.4 miles via summits of Webster and Jackson (allow 5 hours?)
The trailhead is on Rte. 302 across the road from Wiley House Station (a little North of the Dry River campground).

I like options 2a and 4 if the weather is good. It would be nice to cross Webster (3910) and Jackson (4052 ft.) peaks. If the weather is real crummy, we might as well go the quick route (#3). Of course we could go different routes and meet up at Nauman. One possibility is that we all head up Webster Jackson (options 2 and 2a) and we can each decide 1.4 miles into the hike if we want to take in one peak or two. That way we all have some flexibility and we can all start at the same trailhead.

Day two of Presidential Traverse:: Nauman to Mt. Adams?staying at the Perch or a nearby campsite.

Route:

Webster Cliff trail to Crawford Path (.9 miles),
Crawford Path to Mt. Washington (5.3 miles)
Gulfside trail and Randolph Path to the Perch (shelter and tentsite): 4.9 miles
Total: Looks like 11.1 miles total.

Day three of Presidential Traverse:

Madison and then out. Drive to next trail head.

I?m ready to hear ideas on this route? or will post them myself in a day or two.”

“I like Alt #4. I kinda want to stick to the AT as much as possible. I'm with the crowd though. Whatever yall wanna do.
The Perch looks like the only place to camp in the area.”

“Dude: I'll go with #4. Its the route I was originally thinking of.

If the Perch is full, there are two shelters near the Perch (I think these are Crag Camp and Grey Knob shelter)... further along there is also Valley Way tentsite. We are also allowed to camp 1/4 mile away from Perch.

Addenda: Going by "The Thru-hikers Handbook for 2001" it is 10.7 miles from Nauman to the Perch.

If we follow the AT out on day 3, it will take us to the Pinkham Notch Visitors center... The day would be 9.6 miles, but it would be a net downhill day. Other routes down to the road would be shorter than the AT.”

“All righty then.”

“Pete-Haha! You must have quit!
WD- You will need a BIG condem, for the lady! Be prepared!
Ped- thanks, It is lookin up now, I will keep my eye on it!Yo bear”

“Anybody else wanna put in their 2 cents on which route to take on day #1 of the Presidentials?

How about day 3... the long route out the AT to Pinkham notch at around 10 miles? Or from Madison to the Appalachia parking lot via Watson Path (cutting down to somehting like 6 miles for the day)?

Or do y'all have alternate suggestions?”

“I think that alt 4 also suites me. I kind of question going south to north over the northern section (I realize that's what we've been discussing) but all in all that seems o.k. with me I am passive until aggressive is necessary. The only issue I have is on the 3rd day. We need to keep on moving because we'll be needing to get back around to Crawford and start heading south towards Franconia. If we are going to do it that way Pinkham seems to be a good way out. There is plenty of parking there to drop a car off.
There is also other possible camping for the second day. We can discuss them as options when we all get together. Much of what can happen up there will be strictly controled by the weather. I know of several bail out camping possibilities that can be used in a pinch. If weather were to turn for the worst the Sphinx trail is a good place to seek shelter. Keep in mind folks we need to keep open minded for spur of the moment changes because weather demands it.
As far as the fist day I think that we need to be bagging the peaks if my opinion means anything.”

“Hey guys, we will be hiking part of the Long Trail in Vermont at the same time. I thnik we'll be headed toward Cooperstown on the 5th or 6th. If ya'll are going to grab a beer, and we're close, maybe we could hook up.... just a suggestion.”

“cooooool”

“I don't drink beer but I'll have a big Gatorade. Maybe some Ice water. Is zat OK?”

“I guess we have settled on following the AT through the Presidentials (#4 and then Madison to Pinkham notch)

It would be kewl to hook up BB.

Pete: I 'd rather hike the Presidentials North to South and then continue south to Franconia Notch (or hike from Franconia notch due nNorth through the Presidentials). Besids omitting the extra car ride it fits my simple minded notion of backpacking: going from one place to the other.
In fact, I recommended that when you and Dude were talkign about starting the trip with the Presidentials. But I saw the wisdom of your plan.

My/our thinking on this plan was:

A: Doing the Presidentials is a priority for some of you(?). Y'all are traveling further than I am and it makes sense to me to follow your priorities. Since we do need to be ready to call off the exposed part of the traverse if the weather is a problem, it makes sense to try to do the traverse first - that way we get another shot at it if the weather interferes. If we save the traverse for the end (going from Franconia Notch to Pinkahm in one long hike) we would risk missing out on the traverse alogether, 'cause we wouldn't get a second chance at it.

B. If we start with the Predential traverse, our biggest concern is day # 2... the trip between Adams (the Perch) and Nauman which will be a Sunday during labor day weekend. If we go North to South, we'd be coming from Adams to Nauman and there would be a very good chance that Nauman will be filled up by the time we get there (after 11 hard miles) and there aren't good alternatives in the area. On the other hand, there are good alternatives to the Perch which is a less likely to be filled up.

I don't mind hiking the whole thing in one direction, whether its South to North or North to South. Mostly I'm just looking forward to seing Pete again, meeting 'Dude and Jerber and getting in some good backpacking.

I do think we should have a basic "default" plan in mind, even though we need to be ready to change our minds.”

“It don't matter to me which why we go or where we start. You've got a point about why it would be good to start at the North end first.

North to south:
SATURDAY: Start a Pinkham Notch & head 4.8 miles to Osgood tentsite.
SUNDAY: Do the traverse to Mount Washington. Camp around Lake of the Clouds. 10 miles
MONDAY: Head down AT. 11.2 (downhill) miles to Crawford Notch.

Alt:
SUNDAY: Camp at The Perch and Dayhike. 5.4 miles.
MONDAY: From the Perch, go to Nauman Tentsite. 11.2 miles.
TUESDAY: 6.4 miles to Crawford Notch”

“witches brew.... witches brew wheres my scepter when I need it.........No really just kidding. I didn't mean to stir the post up here but I do think that north to south might be better for us. ah heck I too just want to see the crew but I think that by doing N-S we will be able to keep on truckin once we get going. I do believe though that it will be a good idea to leave a vehicle in Crawford to resupply from.”

“I like the idea of the resupply vehicle too. It can be on the belongs to a person that has to leave early. When does the first person on the trip have to bail? Ain't it Tuesday?”

“yeah that would be my friend Jerry (not Bear) but he thinks he's gunna get to the other side of the Bonds, about 10 miles further south, 1/2 way between Crawford and Franconia.”

“Is the plan going to have the Presidential traverse done on Monday (Crawford Notch)?”

“If a fellow was to look into this a little more, what maps or guides would he get?”

“You can order just a White Mountains map from adventeroustraveler.com. Or they also have the "White Mountains Map Book".
Do you think you may try to make it? We'd be glad to have ya along.”

“I did mention it to my wife the other night and she said "Why don't you". I would have ot find somebody to work for me on Monday and Tuesday. If I can swing that, I might be able to do it. What is the final destination and what day will that be? If I could make it, I would probably need to be headed home Tuesday morning, meaning I would probably only make it through the Presidentials. I may be able to go until Thursday morning also. Sirpete, how long a drive is it from the Water Gap?”

“Baume:

The best thing is the "AMC White Mountain Guide" its a compact book that comes with lightweight maps designed for backpacking. The book contains detailed descriptions of the trail and mileages.

DeLorme has a "Trail Map and Guide to the White Mountain National Forest" that goes for about 5$. If you can't find a map near you, I can send you my DeLorme map and then buy myself a new one when I'm in a store. Tax and postage will be on me.”

“If we go North to South, I'd wanna try to get past Osgood on the first day. We could try for:

The Perch (10.2 mile total with .9 miles off the trail)

or

Crag Camp (9.8 miles total with 1.1 off the trrail)\

or

Valley Way Tentsite (8.4 miles, with .6 off the trail).

Then we could still try for Nauman on day two. We could even try to reserve space in the dungeon @ lake of the clouds for night two, although there may be too many of us for that.

Whether we start at the North or South end of the Presidentials, it might still make sense to meet at Crawford notch as dude said... since we will all be leaving cars and supplies there either way.

Its OK with me if we aim to camp out around Lake of the Clouds.. we just have to be prepared to find some place legal and responsible (i.e. at least 1/4 mile away and below tree line).”

“Ped
Keep in mind that on the first day, we'll be driving around setting up shuttles. We prolly won't have as much time that 1st day as we will after we get on the trail.”

“IMHO- Keep milage down to 8 max a day! Perhaps we could entice some others back into the trip!I will be there, BUT I am looking at the milage and seem to me that on the 11+day(s) all we will be doing is bustin but to get to camp before the sun sets. Not much time alloted for the sights! So I may start out with ya, and ifin I am not comfortable with the itenary( milage, I may mosey on and take my chances as to where I lie my head down! Yo bear. I do not mean to rock the boat, BUTT, this is how I feel.”

“I agree with Mark about that Ped.....and I did a little bit of research on the http://www.outdoors.org/BBS/.....search

After searching for traverse I read this one:
If you want to actually "traverse" the Presidentials, then as mentioned, Pinkham is not a good start or end point, and your reservations may not happen as you wish. If things work out, you could: - Park at the Appalachia lot on Route 2, - Take the shuttle from Appalachia to either: - Crawford Hostile, or the AT/Webster Cliff Trail. - Hike to Mizpah Hut - stay overnight, - Hike to Lakes of the Clouds hut - stay overnight, - Hike to Madison Hut- stay overnight, - Do
a day hike out of Madison Hut - stay a 2nd night, - Hike out to Appalachia lot. The choice of Crawford Hostile to Mizpah, or the Webster Cliff to Mizpah is a major one, since the Webster Cliff trail involves MUCH MORE vertical gain - but is a great trail, with great views. When you hike to Lakes, You may be able to bag Washington, then you can skip it the next day. When you hike from Lakes to Madison, take in Washington, Clay, and Jefferson. Take in the summit of Adams, via Star Lake trail, and (maybe) descend into, then ascend out of King Ravine (using different trails) for the day hike out of Madison. You can easily bag Madison summit, on either the day you arrive at Madison Hut, the day hike, or the day you leave. The descent to Appalachia is a little steep at the beginning, but otherwise very easy. Appx 2.5 to 3 hours to the car from Madison Hut. If all goes well you will bag ALL the presi range peaks! In 2 attempts at this hike, we got cut short once by a snowstorm, another time by eat/humidity/exhaustion. Both attempts were in mid-July. By all means be prepared for the worst weather, and carry LOTS of liquids! Enjoy...

I tried to e-mail this guy but his address has changed, I think he still posts on the other site also (http://www.lexicomm.com/whites/wwwboard/index.html)
I got him new email and sent a letter to him again about our trip to get some input. He seems very knowledgable and would like to hear what he has to say. I think he has a good point about starting in Pinkham Notch . It seems as though there is a lot of extra hiking spent going up from Pinkhan notch on the first day (after have already hiking it I can attest to his) . I think that he raises a good point about starting from Rt 2 and hiking up the airline trail or something like that. That way is more direct and less milage to the camping you have spoke about. ie the perch etc. We can shuttle cars via the Jefferson Notch road without much trouble.”

“Jer......we don't have many choices as far as distance goes. The direct exposure of the Mts and the terraine dictates the limited campinfg avaliable up there. especially in the northern section. When we get below Crawford there is more avaliable camping and we can cover fewer miles per day.”

“I'm mostly just trying to point out options, so don't worry about offending me.

Distances are somewhat determined by what's available, safe and legal. The "hump" day of the presidentials is the only one that really needs to be over 10 miles. If we are hiking from North to South, there are two gaps between campsites of about 9 miles (Nauman to Ethan Pond, and Ethan Pond to Guyot) and then its 6.2 miles (Guyot to Garfield Ridge) and 7.7 (Garfield to Liberty Springs).”

“Ped check your e-mail”

“In my opinion, if we do start at Pinkham and don't want to bust our butts the first day out, the traverse would have to be done in four days. Either that or we will have to decide that we are gonna improvise camping spots by heading down from the tree line when we are ready to call it a day... (I remember some places that looked well used and not too destructive, but I don't know if they are legal... and they are a hassle to get to.)

The main benefit I can see for starting out at Pinkham is that way you cut yourself off a sensible section of the AT (which goes through Pinkham). If the AT doesn't matter to you, there isn't much benefit of starting at Pinkham.

If we want a 3 day traverse and don't want to bust our butts the first day, we should start at one of the trail heads on Route 2. On further reflection, the path I mentioned before, Watsons Path, doesn't look so good.

Taking the Valley Way trail from the Appalachia parking lot to Madison via the AT/Osgood trail would be 4.2 miles. The Perch would be an extra 2 miles from there via the AT/Gulfside and Israel Ridge, leaving us with a pretty doable hike of 6.2 miles. Those of us who are either up to hiking a bit longer, or want to do a complete section of the AT could Gulfside to Randolph path and then down to the AT which would be 2.9 miles, for a total of 7.1 miles.

The next day... according to the Thru-hikers handbook it would be 10.7 miles via Randolph path and the AT to get to Nauman. There is a net altitude loss of 500 feet, so this won't we a rigorous uphill day. Come to think of it, this might be an argument in favor of going North to South.”

“BTW: The gain from Appalachia to the peak of Madison is 4200 feet.”

“Got yer e- Pete... will give you a call on it in a few minutes. If you only got one line, that'll give you a chance to get off it!”

“Do any of yall have any of those 14 channel walkie talkies? They might be pretty handy on a trip like this. I'm gonna bring both of mine.”