GPS-Cheating Your Way Through the Backco untry

“So you use a GPS. Is that because you're so mathematically inept that you can't calculate declination? Perhaps you'd rather trust humanities advances in technology rather than the Earth's magnetic field and atmospheric differentials to discern your direction and altitude. I don't mean to impose my values upon others, but when I go into the backcountry it's to escape technology, not embrace it. I prefer the age old inventions such as the magnetic compass and the barometer (altimeter) for my navigation. I am aware that most topographical maps are derived from satelite information, however, if you know of any old school topographers I'd be grateful for the information.”

“Bah! You kids with yer new fangled compasses and barometers! Give me a sextant any day.
And don't even start with me about rip-stop nylon! If ya gotta use more than wool, leather and canvass, you're nothin but a yuppie poser!”

“I remember for First Class Scout requirement in 1961 we had to use the sun and the shadow from a stick to find true north in the daytime. We had to use the north star at night.”

“Mr. X do you drive a car to the trailhead? Do you use a lightweight pack, a tent, a gas stove, or any other modern hiking gear?”

“I don't own a car and I spend all of my time in the backcountry naked.”

“Jealous...or just clueless, Mr.X?”

“Hmmmm? Well in that case you have a legitimate bitch Mr. X.”

“I resent your duplicitous comments, Mr. X, particularly where you say "I don't mean to impose my values upon others", yet, begin your soapbox by saying "So you use a GPS. Is that because you're so mathematically inept that you can't calculate declination? Perhaps you'd rather trust humanities advances in technology rather than the Earth's magnetic field and atmospheric differentials to discern your direction and altitude" ...

Your "opinion" is just that. Like A$$holes, everybody has one.

While I cannot speak for everyone who posts here, I CAN tell you that I seek all the ways I can enjoy the backcountry that I can. Grizzly Adams I ain't. But whatever means I choose to extract maximum satisfaction, enjoyment, and pleasure from my passion, who the hell are YOU to condemn me for it?”

“It is a matter of religious conviction:

Map & Compass is like Judiasm (Old Testament)
GPS is like Christianity (New Testament)

GPS people use their GPS PLUS map and compass. Map & Compass devotees reject the GPS.

The $2 billion of satellites in geosynchronous orbit are analygous to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The satellites send signals to GPS units that do all the math. Reverence for the signal is important. If you are not a "believer" in the signal, then you should stay with the "map & compass" religion.

I suggest that Mr. X leave his GPS at home. If he gets lost he can always use his cell-phone (or prayer) to call for help. Maybe the analogy here would be to a pillar of smoke or fire like Moses used in the desert (Old Testament) to guide the Hebrews through the wilderness.

Interesting, you can get lost either way if you don't have waypoints or maps to work from.”

“I agree with Mr. X. I am still pissed that you can't get a slide rule in the school supply section anymore. The internet makes me angry, because I prefer communication with Semaphore. I think matches should be banned from the backcountry and we should make fire by rubbing sticks together. Yeah! Ted Kazinski was right, technology sucks.”

“Amen to that Phil. Keep the faith brother!”

“I'm a GPS junkie, but I still can out-orienteer most people. i like the GPS because of what it tells you. YOu can track where you've been, how far you've gone, how fast, ect. Actually a GPS with a compass is an unbeatable combination. You can use the GPS to locate your current position, then take a bearing off the map to a waypoint. Calculte the distance with the scale and enter that data into the GPS. Wala, you just set a waypoint based on direction and distance you obtained via compass.”

“****WARNING****
Be sure to check for updates in the software for your GPS. The Magnetic Declination charts are changed every few years and you must update your GPS with the latest version of its software to make sure your azmuth on the GPS matches your compass.”

“Mr. X is a Trolllll...
Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.”

“joe moma is a troll, I still haven't figured out witch one of us he is.”

“Hello all, new guy here....

I don't have a problem with GPS, as long as you can use a map and compass to find your way as well. A GPS is a tool and as long as you have the basics of X-C travel, compass reading and map skills, carrying it is your business......although adding it to your gear is just one more thing to carry.

I know in SAR we have rescued folks that were lost, even though they had a map and compass (just having them doesn't mean you can use them)....we have not had to rescue anyone with a GPS yet....we are waiting for someone's batteries to die, or sunspot activity or someone losing it or....................

Personally, I find the fewer "tools" I take in the back country, the better my experience.

Hiking naked...trolls...Ted Kazinskie was right....opinions are like A$$holes....you folks are twisted.....I like that!”

“I am not a gps fan, I prefer a compass. I am not a purist, I just enjoy the challenge and skill required. There is always a slight risk to it but the satisfaction of doing it correct and arriving at you destination is cool. My compass will never fail due to batteries dying,too heavy of a canopy,or getting sunk in a river. They are cool, just too much extra stuff to carry.”

“hello mtnsteve.”

“I have come to appreciate that on Trail Talk we can disagree on every subject imaginable, except one...the desire to get into the back country.

"Keep the faith" is right!”

“Welcome Stevie Wonder!
If you like twisted...
You're in the right place.”

“I don't own a GPS yet, but I borrowed my friend's unit last year. Two reasons I loved it, and I will buy one this year:
1) Pure bushwackin' fun with no hassle - go anywhere & never get lost.
2) Stashed my gear in a safe, off-trail spot in a questionable area. Went day hiking from there,and came straight back to my stashed gear.

I orienteer great, and will continue to do that. Map & compasss will continue to be part of the Ten Essential Items for me. For some, GPS will replace that. Isn't it a little like sailing a spanish galleon ship for the nostalgia of old time sailing? Orienteering fans will eventually become an anachronism, so celebrate the fact that you are holding a soon to be lost art in the palm of your hand, as well as you GPS.”

“It's a new toy that makes life easier. I agree if you are handy with a map and compass you don't need it. GPS is not any more accurate nor less accurate than compass since you can usually manually triangulate your position to within the GPS positional error.

If their is sufficient topographical relief in the area you don't even need a compass. Any competent person can determine their exact location just be looking at a topo map.

Topos were made from aerial photos long before satellites came around. Since the advent of imaging software using a stereoscope on aerial photos is going the way of the slide rule. I still have my personal one from my college days but the new grads now don't even know what a stereoscope is.”

“Obi Wan-
A little hypersensitive aren't we? Gee, can't you take a joke? I love your use of the "a$$hole" cliche, especially with the dollar signs indicating that I'm some sort of materialist prick. Oh Jedi, personification of all that is pious and just, have you nothing better to do than to hipocritically pass judgement on those whom you perceive to pass judgement on you? Did you have to look up the word "duplicitous" in your dictionary, or is it part of your active vocabulary (yeah, right)? I stipulated that my intention was not to impose my values upon others, and yet you disregard this in your response, despite your citing of this particular statement. Maybe you ought not to take things so seriously.

Much love...”

“My brother left me with a Magellan Tracker recently when he headed overseas (Air Force). It's mine for two years. I haven't been able to sit down and teach myself how to use it. I have started a few times and just haven't been able to get caught up in it. I've known how to use map and compass since I was a teenager. Anyone familiar with this make and model GPS? Is it old? How do you upgrade them with software? It doesnt appear to have any type of data port. Is it worth my time to learn all of its features? I have the instruction manual (book is more like it).”

“Seems to be a common misconception, to those who don't own one, that you can use a GPS as a substitute for a map and compass. This ain't the case guys, so don't go out and buy one thinking it'll get you by when hiking!

The GPS has a compass, but it only works if you're moving, and then it only tells you which direction you're travelling.

Some GPS' can download topo maps into them, but the contour interval is 50 feet at best, which doesn't give you topographical resolution like a 7.5 or 15 min USGS Quad. Most units have only a blank screen when in the backcountry, showing a breadcrumb trail of where you've hiked, and doesn't show trails, streams and their valleys, lakes, cliffs, etc. Heck, I've gotten some Geocache'ers p!ssed because they tried to make a beeline from the car to the cache, only to find the terrain is un-traversable when trying to head in a straight line to the find.

GPSs are an excellent compliment to a map and compass, but definitly not a substitute. And there are many more applications to them than just using them for hiking.

Me, I just strap it to the top of my pack and go, that's it. When back home I download the track and waypoints to a topo program to log my hike on computer. All along the hike using only a map and compass, and only busting out the GPS to confirm my location if absolutely necessary.

As a geologist, I've spent a buttload of time using topo maps in the class and out in the field, so believe me...GPS is NOT a substitute for map and compass...yet!!!”

“There was a couple from PA a few years ago that went hiking, for the first time, in the Whites. The Whites are criss-crossed with trails - junctions and forks abound. They had no map or compass, just their trusty GPS. They soon got hopelessy lost and consulted the GPS. It was their first GPS use, so of course they hadn't known how to program way points to backtrack. GPS told them exactly where they were on the face of the earth, but they didn't have a clue as to how that related to where they wanted to be. Fortunately, they had also brought their trusty cel phone, so they called for rescue! Even more fortunately, the local rescue squad had just taken a GPS course, and were able to talk the idiots out of the woods from the co-ordinates the GPS showed. I'm with Buddur - know map and compass, and carry both. That and my trusty altimeter have been all I've ever needed, even when we were "befuddled" for the better part of an afternoon bushwhacking in Olympic.

I've seen far too many people on the trail who think that several pieces of high-tech electronics and some AA batteries are a substitute for common sense and knowledge. Many of them are future Darwin Award candidates!”

“I got one I would like to sell Garmen Etrac, New $100 bucks”

“Mr X Your post was created to get a rise pure and simple. (you're so mathematically inept that you can't calculate declination?)That flaming statement tells it all. Declination is a small part of the navigation process. Compasses have fewer parts than a GPS but it is a piece of equipment just the same. Subject to failure. Droping it in the rocks or over a cliff,losing it, stepping on it. Responsible Navaigation means using any and all aids at your disposal. There is no crime in knowing where you are in fact not knowing can be a crying shame. I have a Masters Maritime licence and not knowing where I am IS a crime. LOL”

“Heck half the fun of hiking is getting lost and not knowing where you are at, it makes the hikes more enjoyable , not to say longer.
Besides those gps units must weigh at least 2-3 oz. more weight to carry.
uuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggh.!!!!!!!!”

“Hey, which altimeter do those of you who use one use? Pricey, ain't they?”

“I always figured just opening your eyes to navigate was cheating.”

“Baume 66: The Magellan Tracker is a superior unit. Take the time to learn how to use it. You can't download into it, but most people won't want or need to, for some of the reasons in the previous messages.

It was a very highly rated unit when it was introduced about three years ago; they discontinued it because it's a little larger than current models.

When it starts to lose it's signal, it beeps. PAY ATTENTION; my antenae came off in the Alaskan tundra last fall and I lost it because I ignored the beep, thinking I'd lost a couple of satellites. Should have known better since that's about impossible up there with no trees, structures etc to interfere. (Because I had my map and compass the inability to use it was no problem.)”

“Baume 66: Check out review of Magellan ColorTRAK (identical to Tracker, but with lousy{}color) at http://www.joe.mehaffey.com/mag-rev.htm.

Much great GPS info at mehaffey site.”

“Welcome Mtnsteve, good to see you here.”

“Thanks Tony p. You just gave me the info I needed to take the time to learn this unit. Back to the book I go.”

“I think all a person needs is a map and a compass. Maybe a GPS is necessary if you are traveling on snow on unmarked territory in the major backcountry.”

“Sorry that was me again. I'm just not used to Lookingglass going on tt. I start by saying to myself that I'll just look around while he's on, but then I end up with something to say.”

“What Buddur said.

You need to know map & compass to properly use a GPS. I love my GPS, but I think you should always have a map and compass to use with it or as a back up.

BTW. On the first Llama trip my Garmin 38 got ruined during a hailstorm.. I had just taken a bearing with it prior to it going out. I used that bearing and my compass to get navigate us back to camp.

KEEP YOUR GPS in a ziplock bag. I thought mine was dry deep down in my daypack. WRONG! My camera got ruined also.”

“You know what GPS stands for? Can't read a compass!

Just kidding. I don't use GPS because I enjoy orienteering with a compass and quad; not to mention I'm poor. However, in some instances a map and compass won't do you a lick of good. In Saudi during the Gulf War (which I missed), the troops used GPS because maps were useless because there were no landmarks to shoot an azimuth to. But I guess there aren't too many backpacking trails in the deserts of Arabia.”

“Well, you've got a point there, liamoconnor, and the next time I go hiking in the Sahara Desert I guess I'll buy a GPS to take with me. But even in U.S. desert parks like Joshua Tree and Death Valley there are plenty of landmarks to navigate by with good old map and compass.

Personally, I think an ALTIMETER is just as much cheating as a GPS is. Unless you carry a REAL barometer, which weighs about 30 pounds, like the old-time surveyors (like Clarence King) used to have to do.

But really, where do we draw the line? When John Muir struck out into the Sierra backcountry, he had no map, no guide books, and no trails to follow. Now, when I plan a backpacking trip, I consult topo maps made using aerial or satellite photography, can read dozens of guide books telling me about the places I plan to go, and then go on the internet and solicit even more detailed information from people who have already been there. Just look at how many maps, books and websites the llamarama crew has consulted in its discussions about Crabtree Pass and Discovery Pass. Have we sucked all the "adventure" out of backpacking? Well, maybe. But we have to balance that against a general desire for safety and the fact that we don't have all summer to wander lost in the woods; we have to come out in an exact number of days and get back to our jobs. So, while I don't want or use a GPS, I won't condemn those who do. I may laugh at them, but I won't condemn them.”

“Thanks for that, Explorer. Others would have us hang anyone who uses GPS in the backcountry.

Each of us owns our individual means of backcountry enjoyment. For those of us who own or use GPS, we realize that a GPS by itself is not entirely a means to an end. Yes, we COULD use only map and compass, but we choose to augment our pleasure with a little technology. You don't see many (or is that any) GPS users condemning those who use a map and compass, if either, do you? It's a matter of personal choice. I respect anyone who can and does simply navigate by map and compass. And while it's a skill some of us haven't yet mastered, no person should deserve less, simply because you possess a talent someone else does not. Frankly, that smacks of snobbery, and I have no room for that in my life, especially in the backcountry. Can't respect me for who I am? The tools I use? My lack of survival, minimalist skills? What I do? How I live? My color? Race? Eating habits? Where does one draw the line?

I merely suggest that if you relish in your talent (you, the public, not you, explorer - or anyone else for that matter), then you have reason to be proud. Slamming those who lack the same seems to me to be less than a class act.

Ultimately, I am no less ambitious about learning, and mastering, these skills than the next person. One day, I'm sure I, too, will travel the backcountry sans modern technology. For now, I prefer my own recipe for enjoyment, and presumably will learn from that, and the experience of others here, and elsewhere. I'm willing to carry the extra 6 ounces, and shave weight elsewhere, because I want to enjoy the experience in my own, personal, individual way. If I'm to be chastised, ridiculed, laughed at, or otherwise scorned becuase of it, that may explain why those who would do so aren't friends of mine... no great loss to them, perhaps. But then, there will never be gain, either.”

“I laugh at people who use a map and compass, then slag on "technology."

Of course M&C skills are necessary. But it's *all* technology, and though it's low on my priority list, when I have enough $ I'll buy a GPS unit.”

“sure - let's ban all technology from the backcountry.

No nylon - your pack must be wood and canvas.

All clothes must be wool.

No freeze dried food.

No stove. No matches. must use flint to start a fire.

And most of all -- if you get hurt -- no calling for rescue. Just lay there and die.”

“Although I'm not gonna shoot you if you use a gps, I think you're missing out on a wilderness experience. Topo maps are very useful tools, and yes, they do detract from a survivalist, minimalist experience - though clearly not nearly as much as a gps. Besides, it's an unnecessary thing to bring along. Of course, you can bring up all sorts of examples where a gps unit is 'essential,' but what's the point?”