THE DEATH OF CATTLE, CHINA, AND ISRAEL!

“I think everybody should give up beef. More for me! Red meat contains certain vitamins that can't be duplicated by any other form. If you try use the suppliment argument, the vitamins in those supplements are derrived from animals so there is no ground gained. You say that since we can live off plants we should. Well why do bears still eat fish and grubs when they can eat berries and other fruits? Do you think that salmon the bear rips apart fresh out of the river is treated any more humane then being iced? If you go by current PETA logic, then we should all have guns and go out hunting for our meat because confining the animals is cruel, but wait, hunting is cruel too. What a paradox. The thingis that if you were to release all the domestic animals to their "natural habitat," they would die miserable deaths by starvation or disease. If they reamain in captivity they have a dry place to live, adequate food, and good treatment. If anything, people pamper domestic animals. Look at your dog lieing in front of the fire place peacefully sleeping and tell me he would rather be sleeping in the cold rain huddled under a tree. The Indian's are the messed up ones (no offence). They have a viable source of food in the cattle, yet they choose to starve? I know they have religious beliefs, but that is too extreme.”

“"Red meat contains certain vitamins that can't be duplicated by any other form."

I'm not trying to say you are wrong and I'm right DM but these vitamins are not needed to sustain good health, much less life. BTW, what vitamins are those? The recomended daily alowace for protien is nearly five times more than is actually needed for a healthy diet.

One of the biggest reasons I have stopped eating meat is the definit connection between meat and cancer (especially colon cancer). Meat can fester in your digestive track for years. Imagine taking a nice rare t bone and putting it in a black bag and lay it out on the back porch in the summer sun for four days and take a look at it. That's exactly the same conditions of your colon...98 degrees, dark and just sittin' there. You guys DO want a happy colon, right?

(*)

Again, it's about choice but I can't find a single reason for my eating meat.”

“Right on DM99! Bears are wastefull also. During salmon spawning season bears will catch them, rip them open, eat the roe and leave the rest of the fish to rot. That's why when I buy meat I eat only a little and throw the rest on the floor. Then I think of all the starving Chinese and palestinians and laugh and laugh and laugh!”

“LOL sidibombay!

Oddly as an avid deer hunter I have noticed that my meat consumption has dropped drastically. As I was making my lunch ( an apple,orange,32 baked crackers,1.5 oz salad dressing,large salad) I realized that it had been weeks since I made a sandwich. Hmmm?”

“Trinity,

There are two sides to every story. I know my side. I have a firm grasp on the situation and all the events leading up to it.

Thank you for your input, but I disagree!”

“Sidi and Gordon,

I find your comments disturbing. It's just ignorance on your part.”

“Were do you stand on hunting Wild Child? Do you still have the desire to grouse hunt?

I personally believe hunting is the purest form of harvesting meat.”

“I agree Nigal!

I think anyone who goes out into nature and hunts an animal will appreciate nature and the meat on their table. I think intent is an important part of any action one takes. As well, the animal is free, healthy, and is not tortured. I have yet to actually kill anything, and may never do so, but I will not criticize anyone for hunting. I think it's more noble than buying meat at a store.”

“Death to the factory farm!!!!”

“I think this weekend, I'll go hunt me a cow.”

“Good one!”

“Nigal, that vitamin is vitamin B12. Plants don't contain enough of the stuff in readily useable forms. So the little they contain usually just passes through. Vitamin B12 aids in the production of red blood cells and the health of the nervous system. If you don't get enough you can be at risk for pernicious anemia. I don't mind others shunning off meat, just don't force me to do the same.”

“F*ck you Joy. Say that to my relative who owns a "factory" farm. Agriculture is a cut-throat business, and the most efficient operation wins. He's making a good living and is quite good at what he does. Factory farming is an example of what makes America great.”

“WC, I still don't see anything to support you opinion.”

“If there are only two sides to an issue, either it isn't a very interesting issue or you haven't looked hard enough (or people are on the same side for very different reasons).”

“Thanks for letting me know which one it was DM. I did some reading and found a couple good articles on the subject of B 12 and how to get it. Had you not brought it up I would have not known about it.

http://www.newcenturynutrition.com/public%5Fhtml/webzine/archives/vitaminB12.shtml

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm”

“Peeney,

I can't believe you support factory farming so strongly. Those are some strong words!

Trinity,

I am just letting it go. I am not going to discuss from the 15th century to the present on a message board.

I am half-Palestinian and half-British. I know the history of both sides of my culture. It makes me very angry to have to defend a so obviously oppressed culture.

Even if we exclude history and just look at the facts of today, 2 dead, 25 wounded, after Israeli tanks and bulldozers mowed down a refuge camp in Gaza. Everyday Israel kills children throwing stones. It's a human rights issue that many are ignoring.

This happens every day”

“The whole thing can be stopped by the Israelis. It?s an evil cycle?the Palestinians throw rocks and kill an Israeli solder. In retaliation the Israeli army bombs the Palestinian houses creating what? Anyone? Anyone at all? Right! More rocks!! Then the Palestinians throw THESE rocks and starts the whole cycle over again! Just let ?em run out of rocks and it?ll be all over!

In all seriousness WC I would encourage you to ask questions like ?Why?? to every single action in a situation.

Why are the Israelis shooting kids?

Why are the Palestinians throwing rocks?

Why is Israel occupying their land?

Why did the Palestinians invade and attack Israel to lose their land?

Why is Israeli security so tight and Palestinians have so few rights?

Why do Palestinians justify terrorism?

I?m not asking you to post 1,500 years of history just that you not look for truth simply because you don?t like the answer. The actions and consequences of things happening today are caused by things in the past. Find those things and keep an open mind. I?m not saying you?re even wrong but you have to have sound reasons for your beliefs.”

“Thank you Nigal. I have already considered much of what you have said. I am simply saying it would take a lengthy post to express what I feel. I have no need to prove what I know.”

“Examine history to understand the present.

Have a reason to believe something.

Hmmmm....now I don't have to enroll in Common Sense 101. Thanks Nigal.”

“Nigal, there was no Israeli solder killed by a stone throwing youth. I don't know where you got that from!

VIOLENCE

EVERYONE seems to be talking about reducing or stopping the violence. Conversely, nobody is paying attention to who is carrying out the violence and why it is taking place after four or five years of almost complete calm.

It is frustrating for the Palestinians that the current confrontations between themselves and the Israelis are not perceived by the outside world in context, which is the belligerent Israeli military occupation that is being continuously consolidated through illegal Jewish settlement expansion in the Palestinian occupied territories.

Palestinians say that one cannot separate the ongoing unrest from recent and failed
intensive efforts to reach a final comprehensive Israeli- Palestinian peace agreement. The failure of those attempts rests squarely upon the continuation of Jewish settlement expansion on Israeli-occupied Palestinian land.

There is a strong belief among many Palestinians that Israel initiated the entire wave of violence that began almost immediately after Camp David negotiations collapsed last summer and the subsequent defamation campaign holding Palestinians
responsible for the failure of those talks. Palestinians believe that Israel enacted a
series of military maneuvers meant to force Palestinians and their leadership to agree to the Israeli proposals that were rejected at Camp David.

In most cases, what we have witnessed over the last six months is Israeli violence
and Israeli economic sanctions that Palestinians have reacted to using violent and non-violent means. It is the Israelis who started the provocation by allowing Ariel Sharon Sharon to enter the mosque in Jerusalem. It was the Israeli military that reacted to peaceful demonstrations in Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza and the Galilee by firing live ammunition. The Israeli military has put most Palestinian residential
areas under a barbaric siege that is causing poverty and subsequent deteriorating education and health.

Now Prime Minister Sharon is in Washington and everyone is talking about violence, but the causes of the violence are ignored. Just this week, the Israeli government announced the building of 2,800 new housing units in the controversial settlement of Har Homa on Mount Abu Ghneim near Jerusalem.

This declaration has been made during Sharon's first visit to Washington, on the eve of the second emergency Arab summit in Amman and after six months of confrontations with the Palestinians that have concentrated heavily on the issue of illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. This is a clear Israeli message to the entire world that there is no hope of ending the Israeli occupation, no matter what happens and regardless of which international law or Security Council resolution these policies contradict.

The question now is how the American administration and the Arab leaders are going to understand this Israeli message. Are they going to take it seriously and respond by saying that illegal settlement expansion and peace are incompatible? Or will they continue to neglect Israel's settlement expansion policy and therefore allow for more escalation and further deterioration of the Israeli-Palestinian relationship?

As they decide how to respond, world leaders should understand that if Israeli
settlement policy continues, it will gradually invalidate the two- state solution - from
a purely practical point of view. This, in turn, will make peace an impossibility and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict a perpetual hostility”

“The component which quenches your thirst so well is water (this is what piss is partly composed of),
flyguy6x


the component that makes meat taste so yummy is urea (this is what piss is partly composed of),
Nigal 7:19”

“LOL @ flyguy!
[gulp gulp!]
"Hey dude, don't bogart the piss! Pass me that bottle!"

WC-

"Nigal, there was no Israeli solder killed by a stone throwing youth. I don't know where you got that from!"

"the Palestinians throw rocks and kill an Israeli solder."

You simply misread my post. No biggy.

That's at least a more complete discription for how you feel and why but it is but one side. Many of the things Israel does that you say are ilegal is due to broken promises by the PLO. The picture you paint of the PLO is very rosey indeed. Why no mention of the countless terrerist bombings carried out against the Jews with Arifat's blessing? The bottom line is this is way bigger than us and won't end.”

“Wild Child: I might be just as liberal as you are, but at the moment, I think you're a moron. (don't take this too personally, cause I think nearly everybody's a moron at some point, including myself) PETA is an organization of neurotic fools. It doesn't seem to me that they've thought out most of their arguments very logically. i.e. factory farming is bad b/c it is cruel, yet hunting is good b/c the animals are free (therefore it is not cruel). Well, to quote somebody I forget at the moment, "Nature is a cruel old bitch and she'll kill you given the chance." Very true. I think factory farming is a very short-sighted (ecologically) and unhealthy (for us, the consumers) endeavor, but it is not necessarily a harsher environment for animals than the wild. To condemn it because you think it is more cruel is highly subjective and frankly, neurotic.

peeney: I don't think I've ever thought you're anything but a moron. You're reacting to your emotions just as much as WC when you defend factory farming b/c your relatives do it.

Nigal: You're reputation as a mud-groveling idiot has unnecessarily maligned you. You've posted some of the most intelligent words on this thread I've seen on TT in a while. I couldn't agree more. Hunting is the most definately the purest form to get meat. In fact, it's the only way I ever eat meat anymore.

Note to all: I really don't mean to seem up on my high horse about all this if it came out that way. I just feel really strongly about it.”

“Peeny, put me in touch with your cousin and I will say it to him if it'll make you happy.

What makes America great is CERTAINLY NOT the factory farm.”

“Very good point Joy!

Pisgah,

I did get into hunting for a short spell. I was in love with the idea of living off the land, of being outside, hiking, carrying a nice over under ruger red label shot gun. I spent a lot of money on it last year. I went to the Skeet range all the time. Then I realized it was selfish, and that I was justifying something because it was fun, and there was this feeling it gave me. I think I have decided it is wrong "for me". I have stoped skeet shooting after learning the damage done, by the lead shot, to the stream that runs under the skeet range I go to.”

“Wild Child, what point? Joy saying that factory farming is bad is about as insightful as Nigal trying to pass off common sense as something profound.

Joy, never said it was my cousin. You're a hypocrite if you're blasting factory farming with a mouth full of meat. Maybe your a vegeterian - I don't know. But if you're going to mouth off about something, then try to at least give a reason. Believe me, if my UNCLE wasn't so efficient with his operation, he wouldn't be making a profit. You go ahead and tell him that he's evil for providing for his children, you f*cking uneducated hick.”

“Great arguements from all sides by everyone!

Has anybody changed their mind from their original stance?

No?

Hmmmmmm....

I recently got some Grivel Classic G-12 Crampons. What do you think of this?”

“peeney,

what I think you're saying is that because your uncle is supporting his family (which he chose to have), it makes it ok for him to run a factory farm (which some of us feel has a tendency to treat animals badly).

If you apply that across the board, you could say that someone in the Mafia is justified for killing people, because they have a family that benefits from it.

I see a serious problem with this reasoning. If we all look out for ourselves, and our own interests (including our family), we are doomed as a civilization.”

“I changed my mind from my original stance... which wuzzz... awww I ferget what it wuzzz. But then again I dun change my mind all the time.”

“I agree hunting is the best way to get meat, but I think hunters should use bow and arrow. I know using rifle and shotgun isn't always easy, but I still think it's waay too unbalanced in the hunter's favor.

As far as Nigal's comment, "Imagine taking a nice rare t bone and putting it in a black bag and lay it out on the back porch in the summer sun for four days and take a look at it. That's exactly the same conditions of your colon..." is that really fair? Is it the exact same conditions? What about digestive enzymes and such? Besides, if you emptied out the gut of a vegitarian, it'd be pretty disgusting too, wouldn't you agree?”

“Wild Child,

Your mafia hyperbole is not a very meaningful analogy to factory farming.

Look, freedom to engage in economic activity for the purpose of providing for oneself is what made America great. Life is a struggle and a competition, so of course EVERYONE is looking out for themselves and their own interests. Our civilization is far from doomed - this is how our country works. Our civilization is likely to only grow stronger through the pursuit of wealth. I think you would be quoting Karl Marx if you didn't think it would alienate everyone. You're just not engaged in the real world, and you don't have realistic expectations or goals. My suspicion is you're an effeminate communist sympathizing coward. Move to China, dumbass.


You were more interesting when you were regurgitating what you've read from the BBC earlier in this thread.”

“I agree Tommy, Nigal's coment is a little absurd. With a proper balanced diet, i.e. fiber, the chance of anything staying in your colon for long periods of time is reduced along with your chance of colon cancer.”

“Thank you peeney,

Your harsh words only allow me to realize how disgusting I have been in the past, and I thank you for that.”

“Not believable, Wild Child. Everyone knows you're a troll, and this is just your troll-personality du jour. Go ahead and have fun with it. Obviously you've done a little research to try to make yourself sound authentic.”

“That's fine peeney, it's your loss to disregard all I have to say.”

“penny -
You're language toward joy is totally uncalled for.

I have a retired uncle and a deceased cousin (no relation to each other) that were large-scale hog farmers, a cousin that farms 1000 acres and operatess six chicken houses, and numerous relatives that farm and/or raise cattle on smaller scales. I have been raised in close proximity to the agricultural community.

Though these relatives undertake/took these vocations to support their families, the ultimate cause of these conditions is consumer generated.



Isreal/Palestine?
Lesseeee...
The US plane involved in the collision is based out of Okinawa - my dad helped capture that turf in 1945.
"The spoils go to the victor"”

“Well, its nice, WC, to see that you can put forth a coherent statement. But I am going to have to agree with Nigal that it is very one sided.
You talk about 1500 years of history, but what of the 4000+ that the Jews have in the same area. They; as a people, a culture and a religion predate everything that is there now. So, who historically has a right to the area?
You say occupation by Israel and illegal settlements, this is the way its been done all through history. How do you think the white man got this country that you are living in. Military occupation, read-Indian wars and forts; illegal settlements-read farmers, gold miners, ranchers. The talk today is how modern man displaced Neanderthal man in Europe, (occupation), and took over, (settlements).
You state that the Israeli Army kill children but it seem that just a few week ago a car bomb kill some teenagers at a bus stop, while they waited for a school bus. What about the teenager who was lured by a Palestian woman to his death.
This is not a one sided affair. The first thing one must remember is that most people just what to live and let live. So when something like this keeps going on, you have to ask----WHO is gaining by it and why do the not want it to stop.
WC, by making one sided statements as you did you give the other side the same right, which just makes it go around and around. Try and understand the other side it makes your arguments better and keeps most problems solvable.”

“Isn't Elisabeth on Survivor just about the cutest thing you ever did see? :P”

“I do see the other side, I was just explaining the one side that I don't think the media speaks to very often.

I agree with you, and I don't think either side gains anything from killing.

This has been a very good discussion.

Thank you all!”