“...or hot in a naked tub”

“Years of half-measures and half-assed attemps to educate ALL of America's children mixed with obstruction and deconstruction by conservative political forces have had a hand in the racial problems and lack of progress.

Then there are the racist attitudes and smugness of sooooo many white people who have succeeded in life.

You can take the honky out of the KKK, but you can't take the KKK out of the honky!”

“I like this better.....

(.) (.)
) . (
( v )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I H I
I O I
I TUB I
_______________”

“OOPS! well that did not work worth a darn!!!!”

“I think this kind of thing happens too often in too many places for it just to be random bad decisions by people in the cities - black or otherwise. This is a societal problem.

And poverty is poverty. I live in a pretty rural and white area. There are as many whites out here who make bad decisions as there are blacks in the cities who ruin their lives. It has to be frustrating to see all the affluent whites moving out of town and seeing all the businesses and opportunities close behind them.

And it also has to be disconcerting to see a 75% white police force patrol a predominantly black area. I know my little white town wouldn't like it if blacks from somewhere else enforced the laws.

Sure, there is no justification for wrecking businesses. But city leaders who didn't take care of this race problem years ago left the door open for nasty people to take the scene.

But I am always sickened when I drive through the lily white suburbs of Detroit. I've lived in the Chicago area before and I know what a great city can be like. There is enough money in Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills to make a world-class city center. But, instead we're left with a rotting center and surburbia infinitely out towards the horizon.

Poor race relations has ruined my home city. In the end this kind of thing hurts everyone - white and black.”

“BTW, poor, rural white guys - i.e. Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols - hatched their Oklahoma City bombing plans in white, poor, rural Michigan. There are as many crazy, violent country hicks out there as there are crazy, violent blacks in the city.”

“"Years of half-measures and half-assed attemps to educate ALL of America's children"

What the...exactly what half measures and halfa@@ed attempts are you speaking of? You can't tell me there is a child left in this country that doesn't know that racism is wrong. If they say it's OK it was taught to them by their bigoted parents. If you think it is the schools/government's job to educate your child about such social issues you're just another lazy parent.

"mixed with obstruction and deconstruction by conservative political forces have had a hand in the racial problems and lack of progress."

Again I ask, what the...exactly what obstruction and deconstruction are you speaking of? Sense when is it the government's job to make us all get along? It seams pretty plain to you what the problems are so please help me nail them down. Exactly what role are you suggesting the government play in this issue?”

“Here is ken?s opinion of race riots, as explained to what is presumed to be a mostly white audience. First, it is important to accept this fundamental premise: the people inhabiting the rioting neighborhoods are people just like all of us. They have the same feelings and emotions and sensibilities and intelligence as all of us. Although educational levels are typically low, they are people exactly like all of us. They feel the same kind of happiness, love, sadness, frustration, joy, anger, and dejection as all of us. It is very easy to characterize ?those blacks? as somehow a different kind of humanity, with different motivations and sensibilities, but that is a cause of the problem. You must get it that ?those blacks? are exactly like you inside the head.

Now what would make you riot? Yeah, you. What would make you run wild in the street burning and stealing and beating? Would a joy of burning, stealing, and beating make you do it? If not, then you must reject that these people are doing it for that reason. Would you do it because it is your nature to riot? If not, then you must reject that it is the nature of these people to riot. Come on, what would make you burn down your neighbor?s business? Maybe you say you just wouldn?t, but that?s a cop-out and you?re not getting off the hook that easy, bucko. We all have our breaking point, so what?s yours? What kind sustained misery would break your spirit to the point of riot? I?m talking about prolonged and repeated injustice and humiliation and egregious mistreatment. Just what would it take to break you? Yes, I?m still talking to you, and don?t tell me that it can?t be done because it can.

The poor people of those Cincinnati neighborhoods have reached that point. Not a single individual, but entire neighborhoods have reached that point. Whatever terrible despair would make you riot, whole neighborhoods of human beings have experienced it. They live what you cannot imagine. Do not chastise them, nor admonish them to move away nor suggest that they are the cause of their misery. Would you wish to cause misery to yourself? If not, then they would not either.

So what should you do? Tough question. If solving the world?s problems were easy, they?d be solved. How about at the very least, not contributing to the problem. Rather than pointing out differences in culture, with overtones of supercilious superiority, find the commonalities. We?re all in this together, so it behooves us to not have a significant percentage of our population in despair. Reinforcing divisions does not help. If you want to do slightly more than the very least, the next step is to not remain silent in the face of bigotry. Do not let racism go unchallenged. There?s plenty more you could do, but please all let?s do at least that minimum.

End of lecture.”

“bravo Ken :o)”

“So that?s it? They reached their breaking point and went off? That sounds too much like an excuse. What they did was wrong and there is no excuse, only reasons. So if someone is weaker in spirit than me they are not held to the same standards of decent behavior as myself? I would never, I repeat, NEVER riot, destroy property, assault people the way the people of Cincinnati did. It solves NOTHING and to think otherwise is pure, unadulterated ignorance. Hows about we go to Detroit and ask those that rioted and destroyed their own city if they would do it again if given the chance.

Yes, they are mad but the love of a mob mentality is greater than their anger. It?s just like when middle classed white kids get out there in there bandannas and protest the WTO. They get out there and start realizing that, ?Hey, I can get away with crap in this mob I can never get away with as an individual. Let?s do it!? and the next thing ya know they are acting exactly like the mob in Cincinnati.

Bottom line: there is no reasonable excuse for this behavior.”

“Nigal, you rejected the premise that they were the same as you. Instead you presumed superiority. That?s the easy way out. Until you dare to put your own personal self on the same level as all of humanity, you cannot understand the problem.

For an interesting look at the mob mentality, read The Ox-Bow Incident, by Walter Van Tilburg Clark.”

“Ken you type good.

This comment has nothing to do with race. I agree that we all have a point at which we will rebel. Our country was founded after such a rebellion. It is central to the character of our country that rebellion is an ever present threat to keep the politicians in line and it has worked so far. Rebellion is not always violent. Lets keep the gun debate for another time. I differ with ken on the idea that ?these people? are just like me. I have been burned to many times making that assumption. Don?t down play the education or the learning of ?values?. What happen in Cincinnati was about emotion. Knowledge, education and critical thinking are the thing that keep use from acting on emotions in a way that is self destructive. I have emotions of course but I seldom choose a course of action based on my emotions. In that I, and people of a like mind, are vastly different from those that act primary on emotions. I am not the same as the rioters and this has nothing to do with race (you don?t know my race).

This is not to say I would not chosen to rebel if I were in the same position as the people in Cincinnati. It does mean that my actions would have been vastly different. That is because I am different. I didn?t say better. My way of making choices is better for me and I prefer to associate with others of a like mind. It is not a race thing. The fact that jesse Jackson would rather be with bill clinton than Clarence Thomas does not make mr. Jackson a racist.”

“or Lord of the Flies.”

“Mtn gal said: "Knowledge, education and critical thinking are the thing that keep use from acting on emotions in a way that is self destructive. I have emotions of course but I seldom choose a course of action based on my emotions."

From reading that illiterate muck you call a post, it's pretty obvious you don't have "knowledge, education, or critical thinking." So I have no idea what you base your actions on, but I'm pretty sure to know you and your opinions is to know your husband and his opinions.

You and Nigal rival each other for the title of TT's Loudest Uneducated Dumbass.”

“Peeney ? and we find examples of your intellect where? Is it in your name calling? Is it in your well formed rebuttals? Or are you just trying your hand at being a troll? And your opinion should matter to me because . . .”

“Hmmmm...I think we've heard that statment before. Heaven forbid a female should come up with her own ideas and opinions Peeney, you Jack@ss. (BTW, my husband didn't tell me you're a jack@ss)

Nigal, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think that we are inadvertantly taught prejudice and even racism. I don't think most parents wish to teach their kids intolerance of different skin colors/cultures. It happens when parents don't expose their children to differences and show them that all people, no matter what color can be just as wonderful as those of their own skin tone. Growing up in suburbia or rural areas there aren't that many variations on color. If you never have any possitive experiences with blacks and all you know of them is what you see in the news or on "Cops" it can be very easy to view them with disgust and indifference.

I also think that the way a child is raised has MUCH to do with how they behave and function in society as an adult. Sure there will always be those who rise above their childhoods. I bet those are the ones who had someone to teach them the value of hard work and what they are capable of. I don't know where I'd be if my folks hadn't taught me work ethic, manners, how to take care of myself and my belongings and surroundings and instilled in me a sense of self worth. I'd hate to have to find out.

I agree that there is no excuse for rioting. Remember it's not just minorities who do it protesting injustice. Stupid, well-off white kids do it when their college's team wins (MSU a few years ago).”

“peeny/ken, I don't consider myself to be a racist. I am open to dialog with all kinds of people. Tell me, would you be open to moving to an all black neighborhood? You may not since they are known to be tough neighborhoods. Would you consider yourself a racist for realizing this and not wanting to move there?

I realize what these young gangs of blacks are capable of and would cross the street if I saw them coming. Maybe they could be just good young kids, but I'm not willing to risk my saftey. That's just survival.

ken, you totally don't make sense. We are all different and motivated by different things in life, that's just a fact. It's against the law to riot. Why would you think blacks are entitled to riot? Do you know what rioting means? It causes the destruction and looting of things that others have strived to have in life. That means the destruction of stores owned by blacks. That doesn't make sense. We all have a right to be heard. All you have to do is get a permit for the right to gather. That's the lawful way.”

“The fact is that the majority of black people in Cincinatti did not riot or loot. So there is something that separates the rioters from the majority of Black people and from the majority of white people. White people riot too, after football games and heavy metal music concerts. In my lifetime, white people in the south damaged their towns and their region by riotious and murderous racial violence against black people. Most white people didn't do this.
In my lifetime, white people in Boston Massachusetts rioted against having black students bused into their schools. It was senseless and destructive, but it was not the majority of white people who did this.

Rightly or wrongly, there is a point at which some people will get entirely fed up. Rage and hatred are part of our (humanity's) biological heritage.

Even a black racist like Farrakahn has said more about what the black community needs to do to get itself together than he has about what the whites devils, the Jewish devils... have done to blacks. Even this scape goating leader speaks more of what can be done by black people.

Surely there are grounds to criticize the rioters and many black leaders. But when I hear white folk talk only about what blacks are doing wrong, as if the reality of white privilege and racism does not exist or is not part of the problem, I start thinking about motes and beams.

I start thinking that the blind rage of the rioters (and clever opportunism of some rioters) was far sighted compared to the blind
smugness who would scold the rioters for their unreasonableness.

The impact of racism and those who profitted by racism and viuolence against Africans and people of African descent continues, after several centuries, to be a huge fact of life for black people in at least 3 continents.”

“lipstick hiker said: "peeny/ken, I don't consider myself to be a racist"

Everyone else does. You've said more bigoted things about blacks than anyone else here, and have gotten your butt reamed for it too.

Loser.”

“lipstick hiker said: "peeny/ken, I don't consider myself to be a racist"

Everyone else does. You've said more bigoted things about blacks than anyone else here, and have gotten your butt reamed for it too.

Loser.”

“Ped,
Well said.
Lh, I don't mean to single you out here, but...
"I realize what these young gangs of blacks are capable of and would cross the street if I saw them coming."
I can't be certain, but if you saw a group of whites coming towards you, would you feel the fear. Would you even notice how unfair it was of me to refer to the "group" of whites and compare it to the "gang" of blacks? We are not going to solve the problems of the world here. But we do need to recognize that we all have our biases, many of which are based on personal experiences.”

“flyguy6x is right to bring up Lord of the flys. No one knows how they will act in a situation until they are in that particular situation. And weather we accept it or not, most people follow the crowd like sheep. Would you? maybe not but you do not know until it happens. A few evil people white or black or brown in a crowd can easily turn normal intelligent people in to an angry mob.

What happens to the fans that riot at soccer, basketball, hockey games? Are they less intelligent or knowledgeable than the rest of us? Hell they riot over a game. At least the people in Cincinnati started out trying to make up for an injustice. Agreeably they took it way to far, however the police, politicians and media are partially to blame for that also.”

“Hold on there Joy. I'm not slamming mtn gal because she's a woman. I'm slamming on her because she's an ignorant, undecated loudmouth who regurgitates mis-information with absolutely no critical thinking or insight. Much like Nigal.

Compare her posts to pedXing or ken, ignoring the difference of opinion. Do you see the difference? The lack of free thinking? The lack of original ideas? She writes worse than a high school freshman, and she only makes sense sporadically at best. UGH, loud-mouth ignorant people get on my nerves.

Now compare her to a womanlike Lizs, who's obviously educated, intelligent, informed, and assertive but tactful. Mtn gal is a joke compared to a real woman.”

“flyguy, if I lived in an area known to have white punks (gangs, whatever) walking around, I would certainly cross the street also.

peeny, I think you should just speak for yourself. I am not predjudice, that's why I can speak freely. If I were predjudice, I would keep it to myself, because I would know that it would not be right to post those kinds of feelings on this site.

The losers are the black people that follow the black leaders that teach predjudice and keep saying that the white man is their enemy.

I judge people individually that I meet. It has nothing to do with color, race or religion. All I want is a free society that permits me to travel anywhere without fearing violence happening to me by any nationality, my own nationality included.”

“I don?t think Lipstick is a racist. But some pin heads think I am. Some of us are just not real good at saying what we mean. We are required to make judgments all the time. It is a matter of survival in some cases and comfort or making money in others. We make these judgments not on perfect knowledge but on the available facts. Making these judgments is not wrong it is required as part of life. Often these judgments are about other people and unfortunately a persons race is one of the easy facts to collect. If statistics, experience or bad teachings lead you to believe that green people are more likely to harm you, you will use that information in your judgment. If the information is bad the judgment will be flawed. If I was green I would not like having judgments made about me bases on bad information. One of the things I would want to do is get people the correct information. This is done not by showing the worst part of my character but by showing my best. One of my goal would be to improve the image of green people and one way to do that is to improve the behavior of the worst green people and openly condemn the worst behavior. I am in ?White-aho? so I don?t personal see what blacks or any other race group are doing to improve their image but the news media does not seem to be showing these efforts. Is it wrong that LH would cross the street to avoid a group of young men. Not really, how would that harm the young men? If she did them some harm then it would be wrong.”

“Mtn Gal, thank you for the complement. That was kind to say, especially in light of my occasionally flippant taunts elsewhere.

Lipstick, I regret that you cannot find any sense in what I said. Accepting my premise, that the rioters have the same emotions and sensibilities as you do requires courage, but it may help you find some sense.”

“Thanks mtn gal. I hope I haven't been misunderstood, maybe I haven't expressed myself the best way I could all the time. If so, I am sorry for that.

Just because I am white, that doesn't mean I haven't felt predjudice against myself. It happened to be that predjudice happening to be was by blacks. I was very surprised to see anyone treating me that way, since I have nothing against them and do not even know them. It hurts, and I don't do that to anyone else.

I had the nicest Phillipino man help me yesterday. I went to the hosptial late last night, because I couldn't find my inhaler. I got directions to find the pharmacy in the basement. It was like being in the twilight zone. The halls were big and desolate as I went back & forth looking for the pharmacy. I went back up a floor, and no one was there either.

I did notice a Phillipino man in a room, I guess he cleans up at night. He was so nice to me, and helped me find the pharmacy & my way out, I called today to let the people incharge know because I copied down his name. Do I think all Phillipinos are good or all bad? I just know that there was a kind person who cared to help. I know he was Phillipino cause he looked like one and I asked him, so I could talk with him about his country.”

“ken, I just don't believe that rioting can help a person. I feel peaceful demonstrations are more helpful. I can't have the same emotions & sensabilities as the rioters, because I would never riot. I don't know why you keep saying we are all alike. We all feel happiness and sadness etc, but we are different, but that doesn't mean we can't blend together.

I was brought up to be civil, and express myself in a more quiet manner. I was shown from watching my parents how to blend with others and not put myself out there as someone that is different or better than others.”

“?Nigal, you rejected the premise that they were the same as you. Instead you presumed superiority.?

They ARE the same as me. Where we split is at the moment they take to the streets and start breaking the law. How do I presume superiority? By NOT tearing up my neighborhood and NOT attacking people based on their color? It?s not being superior?it?s being responsible! I refuse to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator of basic behavior. We all have the same rights in this country weather you want to admit it or not. So why shouldn?t we all have the same responsibilities too?

This is not even a case of color. It?s a matter of morals.”

“Hi Peeny baby! 8D”

“Joy-

?It happens when parents don't expose their children to differences and show them that all people, no matter what color can be just as wonderful as those of their own skin tone.?

I can agree that lack of exposure can be a factor. I have found that most of the time it is a learned behavior rather than a lack of learned behavior.”

“I am not opposed to the idea of rioting. The Boston tea party was a riot with looting and destruction of private property to boot. I just think the rioters showed a lack of long term understanding. They acted out of emotion, anger. That is a very ineffective way to enact/force change. To make a truly powerful statement that shows a serious level of commitment would have been more affective. Close down main roads with silent sit-ins. Have everyone dress from head to toe in black, get religious and civic leaders to eloquently explain your point of view to the all too eager press. Avoid inflammatory rhetoric,focus on facts remain calm.controlled.

I would be much more freaked out by a very large well behaved group than a bunch of wild thugs. Their anger will subside and they will go home and gripe. But an organized group united and controlled is a force to reckon with. Ask Ghandi...”

“Press is press folks - Can anyone consider this might not have been just a spontaneous outburst? PedXing mentioned earlier the "profit of racism" and I think that idea deserves consideration. I wonder if this event might have been instigated by folks who knew exactly what they were doing.”

“hyperpacker, I don't think all of the cops were White. I am pretty sure the cop that was dragged to death was Black. His attacker eventualy died of the gunshots the dead officer fire prior to his demise. I assume some of the other officers were Black as well.”

“peeney, so you are all about putting words into peoples mouths, labeling and libeling them? Is that better than being a racist? Is it worse?

I refer to myself as a realist.”

“Bacpac, yeah some of the cops may have been black. My overall point was that it sounds like the folks who got shot represented a clear and immediate danger to the police,black or white. Forcing police to step to the final option in the " force continuum".”

“I'm starting to take a shine to you peeney. You seem to have to all the freakin answers and solutions to the problems that have been afflicting our society as a whole for hundreds of years. Name calling......... right! How is my grammer so far you freakin cock snot turdburglar. Shut you pie hole LOSER.

It is real easy to say all that wonder stuff you spewed earlier about the similiarities between blacks and whites. How we all share the same feelings and desires and blah blah blah, but you know you could be no further from the truth. We pride ourselves on individuality. It is that difference amongst us that has made this strong and will continue to make a us stronger in the coming century.
Racism will NEVER hide its ugly head. That is a fact. Period. No matter how hard we as a multiculture Nation try to put a end to it, it will never subside. Why? Who knows why. Could it be the fact that some persons(black or white) will just never let go of the past?, maybe, Who knows. I could really care less until it effects me personally.

Damn phone call ruined my rant. So be I'll be back.”

“Yeah, its all about morals!
That's a nice simple answer.
What we need in Amerika is HAPPY POOR PEOPLE!

Why can't they just accept their lot in life and behave?

They are sooooo different from me.
I would never riot!

Well DUH!!!

Could y'all see Nigal rioting?
Possible reasons for Nigal to riot;
NASCAR race cancelled
The chef over-cooks his 3 pound steak
He's already reached his quota for handgun purchases this month and wants another.
I mean, DUDE, what is there to riot about with such a non-challenged life.

.....I got so doggone mad
I threw my drink across the lawn...”

“Courage Nigal my friend, courage. Try it one more time. Deep breath first. Say "They ARE the same as me" again but not any of that other stuff. Believe it. Another deep breath. Say "I am the same as them" and stop right there. Believe it. If it doesn't scare you, you aren't doing it right. Try again and be thankful that you don't know misery.”