What, no Peru debate?!?

“Were I the Official Scorekeeper, I would say that last remark, (#5), puts you out of bounds, BaSO4.
Mutt, what have you found in your life that would inspire others? Your shotgun spray has now hit everyone. Time for some positive alternatives to your view of christianity.”

“Mutt I was wondering why you are so against Christianity. Did you go to a Christian school or grow up the son of a Pastor? I have noticed that these people are usually the most rebellious. Are you just a troll trying to get a rise outta us?

I have been trying to figure out where so much hate comes from.

One day you will be going along in life and you will get an awakening. It may be the death of a loved one, a car accident or it could happen to you like it happened to me. You will get it while sitting in a Drs. office listening while he tells you, you have cancer and they need to cut out a section of your leg. Your life will literally pass in front of your eyes, your hopes, your dreams, things you did, things you wanted to do, your babies first smile, things you did for people, things you didn't do for people. Things you said or left unsaid. And somewhere in there you will start to think about what happens after death. Will you see loved ones again? Is there a God?

I'm not preaching or trying to preach I'm just telling you you might not want to write Christianity off without doing a little research.

Believe in the theory of evolution? Three of the smartest people I know are devout Christians. You know what they say about this? There are too many loopholes in this theory. But you don't hear this on TV. The liberal media doesn't want you to. Example, the human eyeball. The rods and cones that make up the retina are too specialized, there is no way they could have evolved from single cell primortal ooze.

Just because the media today shows some misguided Christians,it doesn't mean that everyone is like that. They are showing those type of people to juandice your view of Christians. Unfortunately, you fell for it.


I know after you read this you will flame me to no end. But someday, someday when your awakening comes and you need a higher power, you will think of this and remember.


God bless you Mutt.”

“Mutts distain for Christians stems from his secret desire to be a Christian.”

“Bacpac, I see you have a sense of humor. Good one. ;-)

Willow, what I find interesting is the bafflement christians experience when they see non-christians comfortable in their own spirituality. I mean, the rest of us are going to hell, right? And if I slam christianity and make fun of christian loonieness, then I must not be secure in my own beliefs, or believe in God, or an afterlife. I find it incredible that, with so many religions around the world, with so many devout followers of each, that christians cannot even begin to recognize that christian mythology is not necessarily THE reality for everyone. I enjoy tweaking the noses of christians because they're so uptight about their belief system. They HAVE to have total faith in their fairy tale, and anything that challenges it is of course evil, and threatens to shake their confidence. And oh, how they get riled up! This has been one of my best sessions on this forum. I've got the christians shaking their heads and praying for me to wake up. I've even got a so-called professional psychologist labeling me with dementia or mental illness (and he still doesn't have the balls or the knowledge to rebut my critique of his field - typical psychologist. ). And there's the people saying I'm full of hate and venom and am a sorry little fellow who should be pitied! This has been great fun. Personally, I think I've done more good than harm to the christians here. I mean, they're all rallying together, moaning and b!tching and strengthening their social identities and boundaries and resolve to convert the world to xtianity. But, all good things must come to an end, and I'll take my leave of this forum once again. But don't worry, I'll be back (assuming Matt doesn't ban me!).

Willow, regarding your irreducible complexity argument against evolution - what a crock. Just because YOU can't see how there could have been a simpler eye, doesn't mean that there wasn't. And when science does discover organisms with simpler eyes, the anti-evolutionists will say "Okay, well you found a simpler system, but there couldn't have been a simpler system than that, then." Ugh. By the way, I remember reading an article not too long ago which said that scientists had discovered a simpler eye structure that could have been an evolutionary stepping stone. Can anyone confirm this?

oh well. Peace.”

“"Your lack of a response to my critique of psychology is very telling, pedxing, very telling"
Mutt

What it should be telling you is that I'm not that easy to bait. Basically, your arguments hit me where I ain't. I don't feel criticized, or even interested. I am not a psychoanalyst.

You touch on interesting concepts, but you don't even touch on the really important and immediate questions. You've shown no sign of ability or interest in real thought, debate or discussion.”

“Mutt (continued):
You have basically been a mirror image of "straw man" you attack when you pretend to address Christianity. You hurl your conclusions and ideas like rocks.

I can't pretend to know you, or your motivations. All I have seen are what you post as "Mutt." I did think of you as being a bit more thoughtful before, I don't know if that's accurate or not.”

“Why such a large personal axe to grind wrt religion, Mr.Mutt?

You certainly look down your nose at religion in general, smug in your own set of ideals, and rip on those who don't see things through your eyes. Who's to say that your beliefs are right/correct/true?

"I mean, they're all rallying together, moaning and b!tching and strengthening their social identities and boundaries and resolve to convert the world to xtianity. Who's moaning and bitching...other than you? You have to admit, you've put alot of time and writing effort into knocking other's organized beliefs.

If I said that I'm a practitioner of religion, I'd be a liar (and possibly a blastphemer), but I certainly don't have the need as you to put down anyone, or their religion, for what they believe! And I can't help but wonder why you have an apparent insatiable desire to do so.”

“Ooops seeing you last post Mr. Mutt. You will notice that I didn't give you any psychiatric label, I just said that if words (the tools of a psychotherapist) were useles then I should medicate you. If you are as smart and as informed about psychology and pscyhotherapy as you say you are, you would see the rebuttal contained in that remark. If not, I don't see any need to spell it out in Caps, or to push your face in it.

You accused me earlier of playing both sides, the truth is I try to think things through for myself and not merely adopt positions conistent with my allegiance or opposition to certain sides.

I am not simply for or against all of christianity in all its manifestations, or for or against psychotherapy.

Oh... and I was not intended to be a flyswatter.”

“?Are you just a troll trying to get a rise outta us??

We a have a winner! Willow?s onto Mutt now. Mutt doesn?t care about the subject nearly as much as the people who get upset by him, he just wants to get the reactions. Were it important to him he would share his own beliefs or at best he would offer plausible arguments rather than simple emotion and distain. By getting all bent out of shape we give up power. It?s all a power game for him.

?The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolish to him, and he can not understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.?

I Corinthians 2:14”

“To offer a less hateful, more thoughtful view that disagrees with Christianity:

I can see some of what Mutt has to say. Christianity has caused a lot of problems - the Crusades are the most blatant and easiest to point to. And yes, I realize that was a long, long time ago. A more complex area has been in the evangelization of the third world. The Boxer War was as much about Christianity as it was about opium. And we've all discussed Chinese xenophobia elsewhere, so I won't delve too much into that.

I partially agree with Mutt when he calls Christians sheep. Granted, many practicing religious folks (and this concept applies to all religions) have thought things out on their own, but just as many have swallowed most of what their priest or whoever has told them largely untouched. That precept is dictated more by humanity than by faith; as I pointed out, there are people who think and people who don't in every religion.

What bugs me the most about Christianity is its undying desire to spread the word. Evangelists piss me off to no end. Getting in someone's face about Christianity and threatening damnation on their soul in my mind is absurd, obnoxious, and counterproductive. Openly praying for people who refuse is more than obnoxious, its patronizing. And this process of recruitment often produces the most sheep-like of all church-goers.

This brings me to my next point. The heaven and hell concept is the most ridiculous part of all Christianity. As it grew largely out of Jesus's martyrdom (damnation in the Old Testament concerns itself largely with punishment in this world and through the lives of your children. The Sagisees (sp?) were a Jewish sect that refused to believe in an afterlife), the concept of eternal judgement dovetails very nicely with the forgiveness of sins. IMHO, damnation and redemption is a convenient invention of early Christianity that bolstered its repute among both repressed Christian individuals and nervous Gentiles eager to accept a faith promising eventual redemption. As evidence, I present the book of Revelation, written to the seven churches of Ephesus, Philadelphia, Smyrna, Sardis, Thyatira, Pergamum, and Laodicea who were all struggling under Roman repression of their faith - a letter of encouragement. I challenge you to reread Revalation under this pretense at least.

One last point: I consider Christianity originally to have been a radical Jewish cult with a very charismatic leader that both established (the Pharisees) and conservative (the Sagisees) Jewish groups considered a threat. Therefore, Jesus was handed over to the Romans with the explanation that he was a threat to their political solidarity - i.e. he claimed he was the king of the Jews. The Romans then crucified him as a criminal and a traitor, as was the practice in dealing with threats to the Roman state. His followers used his martyrdom to their advantage, as discussed earlier. Further Roman repression lead to radical, revolutionary writings and stances such as the book of Revelation. As Christianity became the dominant religion of subsequent empires, damnation of both infidels and immoral - to mostly traditional Jewish values - citizens became a politically expedient means of dispatching threats to authority and order. Maybe Mutt needs to be crucified.”

“"May they see the miracles I have seen and feel relief granted unto me."

bacpac, Book 1, Verse 1, April 28th 2001”

“Pisgahforest, I would like to bring up a point a lot of people don't think about. Does anyone know what happened to the 12 disciples after the resurrection? Before the resurection Peter was willing to deny he even knew Jesus in order to save his own neck. Judas betrayed him as we all know. After the resurrection, most of these deciples died horrible deaths supporting their faith. One was even skinned alive. Not one, after the resurrection, was willing to deny that Jesus was the Christ. Do you really think these guys would do this for someone they knew was a hoax? Something wonderful happened that day. That's why we are still talking about it 2000 yrs later.”

“The word 'hoax' carries with it a lot of strong connotations. And yes, I knew that all the diciples (sp??) were slaughtered afterwards. Whether they denied Jesus or not is very, very hard to know. I will point out though, that many rebellious groups experience largescale martyrdom as well. Just a thought.

One more thing: I'm not discounting at all most of the philosophy behind Christianity. I think it'd do society a lot of good. Granted, some of the morality issues have been tacked on later, or bastardized. I also wholehardedly believe in the issues Jesus had with the Jewish faith. I think he'd also be appalled by the current state of the church.”

“Yes, "christianity has some big questions to answer. Prior to one of the church councils, (I can't remember which), reincarnation was the dominant belief in the church. The thought of a "second chance" undermined the authority of the church leaders, therefore no reincarnation could be taught. There are many other examples of this kind of manipulation. What is the truth?
Through my reading and contempation, I have come to feel that the original teachings of Jesus are lost to us. I think he was a much different person, (if, indeed he was a single historic figure and not a synthesis of several teachings/teachers of the times), than many christians are willing to accept.
It is for each of us to inquire, with diligence, into the true nature of being itself. To do this, one must tread some scary territories. Or, so it seems to me. The answers you find might not be the ones that others will be able to accept.”

“Thanks dude. Very wise. :)”

“That be the crux of the biscuit.

Mutt crucified?

Maybe a good flea-dip!”

“Dunadan... I'd be grateful if you could supply some evidence or reference on this notion of reincarnation being part of Church doctrine. I don't recall hearing anything like it before.”

“Me neither.”

“"The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe." - FZ”

“"...dat's OK,
I still got my guitar..."”

“Interesting... Mutt was posting on lots of threads.. In 24 hours he posts about 8 times on this thread alone. He baits me, tells me that my silence is "telling" on aout 3 or 4 of them. Then I respond about 1 hour after his last post (Saaturday afternoon) - responding frankly, but taking the bait a little.

What does Mutt do? He dissappears. No posts in more than 48 hours. Maybe its arrogant of me to think so, but maybe even though I wasn't meant to be a flyswatter, I do OK at it from time to time.”

“Thread Killer!”

“Ped:
I Fed Ex'd Mutt his Clozapine. He should be okay for awhile.”

“LOL! BaSO, That splains it I guess.”

“Mutt is simply an alias for another TT regular who occasionally gets his panties in a wad. He calms down after a couple days when he changes his skivies.”

“i think that when tom t gets wasted, he turns into mutt.”

“From my days in seminary, we studied the "Council of Trent", the "Council of Nicea" and other historic periods of the christian church. One of the doctrines adopted by the church leaders of the time clearly talks about reincarnation. I will let you do the homework on it, but I'm sure you will find it to be as I have said.
BTW, Mutt does "disappear" from time to time, as do many of us. I think he will be back.

Oh,....quoting the bible to Mutt might be like someone quoting the Pali Canon or the Baghavad Gita to a fundamentalist christian. Don't you think?”

“I may be a mongrel
But I am not THE Mutt!

Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.”

“Ped, when he does resurface it will be with the caim that he's been very busy at work and just didn't have time to check in. He goes through the same cycle everytime he stirs up stuff here.”

“he needs to find a second job.”

“I have seen those Mutt cycles. It just seemed "telling" that he kept trying to pick a fight with me and ran away as soon as he got.”

“Motto: Never pick a fight with someone who can whack you up with Thorazine.”

“I'm a bit out of wack....
....can PedXing fix me up with some more wack?”

“No Tomjess with some more Whacko's (remembering yer nuke/kook thread).”

“Dunadan, I searched on the reincarnation and the early church issue. It looks like there is really nothing to suggest that the early church ever accepted reincarnation. There are claims, and more convincing counter-claims as to whether Origen or other key theologians accepted reincarnation.

As best I can tell, there were some church members influenced by Plato and other Golden Age Greek thinkers who supported reincarnation. But it also seems that Christianity, which was Jewish at its roots, did not originally contain any reincarnation doctrine.

I got no axe to grind here, I've been fascinatecd by the history and formation of Christian doctrine. Constantines brutal suppression of heresies is remarkable and fascinating.

I'm not a Christian, but my past readings and my current searches (during a ine hour lunch break) suggest that this pro-reincarnationist history is a fanciful revisionism without much historical basis.

Again, I have no axe to grind here and I'd love to be shown wrong and learn something new.”

“Joy, I do work hard at times. At other times I don't. I call it "feast or famine." A rather fitting cliche, I think. Not only do my professional responsibilities deflect my attention away from this forum, but other forums on different topics also pull my focus away from here.

pedXing, you gave me the equivalent of the "sticks and stones" argument. You say you are not affected by my criticism of psychology, and I believe you. I believe you know next to nothing about the field. So as far as running away from your response, there's nothing to really run away from. You tell me I present my ideas in a less than respectable manner. You tell me I am incapable of true thought or analysis. You tell me you're not interested in my critique of psychology. What's to run away from? Nothing! You're telling me to bugger off. Which is fine. I don't think you know nearly as much about world religions as you'd like your sycophants to believe, anyway. Tell me your academic background and your post-academic search for knowledge, and let's see if you're really an expert. I know self-important pedantic B.S. when I hear it (or read it). I suffered through the painful posturing of classmates in the seminar. I've suffered through the desperate ramblings of my students. I've slept through the arrogant lecutring of professors who love to hear themselves speak. And most importantly I've engaged in the activity myself. So why don't you tell me in broad strokes what you REALLY know. Or don't. I don't really care, come to think of it.”

“Mutt:

1) I didn't use the sticks and stones argument, I said you hit me where I ain't. Your words missed me.

2) I did not say you were incapable of real thought or analysis, I said you had not shown any ability or interest. That was a challenge, and a statement of exasperation, not a put down.
I would love to be shown I had an interested, thoughtful and open minded person with whom to discuss all kinds of issues surrounding the treatment and cure of the psyche.

3) I have no special expertise in world religions, but I search, I read and I know how to have discussions (including arguments) that allow me to learn things. I didn't pretend to know the truth about Dunadan's claim based on what I know. I asked him for more information and I followed it up with a sense of adventure. I announced my tentative conclusion and amidst my poor grammar indicated that I'd love to be shown where I was wrong...and that I'd love to be taught more.

4) I really don't think credentials matter much. I'm not interested in comparing size of lists. I'm interested in ideas and arguments (not escalating claims and contradictions).”

“What does this pissing contest have to do with Peru?

There is a sign in the electrical supply house where we get our supplies. It says " Arguing with a partsman is like wrestling a pig,sooner or later you realize that the pig enjoys it" Submit Mutt for pig/partsman.”

“Submit hyperpacker as a brainwashed christian fool. You're a day late and a dollar short with your observation, there, genius. This debate has moved on in case you haven't noticed. Gawd even Nigal is way ahead of you. You're a slightly more intelligent version of bacpac, and that's NOT a compliment.

pedXing:
"1) I didn't use the sticks and stones argument, I said you hit me where I ain't. Your words missed me."

What's the difference? You're trying to build an image of being a learned psychologist, and when your profession is criticized, you pretend like it wasn't directed at you. Weak.

"2) I did not say you were incapable of real thought or analysis, I said you had not shown any ability or interest. That was a challenge, and a statement of exasperation, not a put down."

You're playing with words here. What you're trying to do is project an image in which you're being unfairly put upon by an irrational and abusive attacker. However, when you say I haven't shown "any ability", it's hard to see how that is different from "incapable." That is a personal attack! Moreover, I presented a legitimate criticism of your field which was based on real thought and analysis.

"3) I have no special expertise in world religions, but I search, I read and I know how to have discussions (including arguments) that allow me to learn things."

--and yet you say---

"4) I really don't think credentials matter much"

I agree you have no expertise in world religions. However, what you present me with is a credential...that you read and learn from discussions, which is exactly what I asked of you. That you contradict this with your next statement shows that you're very concerned with building an image of being a reasonable, knowledgable guy, while avoiding comparing yourself to someone who possibly has a more extensive formal background in religious studies, and avoiding expressing your lack of formal education on the subject. If you cannot admit to the hypocrisy in your contradiction, then you are more desperate than what I thought about protecting your image here.

pedXing, you're a fake. If you're so interested in discussing substantive arguments, then why not pick up the bat and swing away at my argument? It's not like this forum is full of intelligent discourse. Why not seize the opportunity to discuss and learn, as you say you love to do? Why not try to reinforce your investment in your social image here by at least BSing your way through a rebuttal? It's not like anyone else besides you and me know anything about psychology, and they wouldn't know the difference. I don't get you. What I think, though, is that you're full of it, and you're too vain to admit it.”

“I think accusations of vanity are Carly Simon's territory, not those of reasonable thinkers.”

“Hey Mutt, Save the 'I have suffered' speech for someone else. Your suffering can not compare to the agony you have put us through.

Amen”

“i, too, cannot stand the arrogant lecturing of professors who love to hear themselves speak. ahem.”

“Mutt, I would have expected you to recognize sarcasm. I geuss I over estimated your abilities, sorry.

BTW Mutt, you have gone from being really annoying to being REALLY entertaining. You remind me of my neighbors dog. It barks at everything. All day, BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK. Just yaps away and the funny thing is 9 outta 10 times there is nothing there.”

“Rad, Then why do you hang out here?


- The Professor”

“sorry, skipper!”

“What ever happened to Fujimori?
And what about his partner in corruption who fled to the countryside?
The name escapes me.”

“Is it clear to anyone else that Mutt reveals absolutely NOTHING about himself? He slags on other religions but says not a single word what HIS faith entails. He constantly slags on Pedxing for his career choices and how worthless he is and yet the only thing we know of Mutt?s work is it is feast or famine. He makes arguments that have no credence or evidence to back them up yet he words his insults in such a way that everyone bites the line as if he were telling the absolute truth. Much of the time we drag these silly things out for no other reason than to get the last word (and here I am myself!). Ignore the sap and he will go away. Starve a troll and he will die. Go ahead Muttster, I give you the last (and probably hateful) word.

You do have to admit though, there can be no other troll of the year but this little man. Mutt, I salute you! [standing on chair applauding wildly]”

“I am beginning to like Bacpac more than Mutt.

What's this world coming to?”