The Selling of Photographs - HELP!

“I've been photographing nature for over 2 years now and friends are telling me that I have a good eye and that I should start selling my photos. My dream is to be able to make some side money / retirement fund with my photographs. So here's my delima... how do I charge my friends for my photos. I have pretty laid back personality and it would feel weird charging friends more than what the printing costs are. A friend at work wants to buy a bunch of my photos, so do I charge for my art or do I charge for the printing costs??
Help!
I've been reading about photography and being able to sell it, but the more I read the more questions I have. Any and all thoughts would be much appreciated.”

“Well, Reptiles, it is going to be hard to sell to friends, at first, for more than cost. For someone at work, unless they are a close buddy, you'll have to see just how serious they are. If you have great photos, then they have a value to that person. As a beginner in the marketplace, you'll have to guess, and err on the low side until you build a rep for both quality of image, quality of printing/reproduction, and quality of presentation (matting, framing, etc.). If you cost out doing enlargements on quality media and then matting/framing, you will see you have more costs to recover than 1-hour snapshot prints. Are there any pro photographers selling their wares in your area? Do you have any summer art fairs that feature photographers among the mix of artists? Check their quality and prices. Use your research to determine the market and if you have something competitive. If you believe you can or do measure up, it will take the initiative of declaring yourself a pro and living up to the concept.

I have several pro photographer friends and it is not a simple gig. Lots of hustle, lots of investment of time, money and talent. The latter three are what you have to recoup in any price you charge. Smaller prints at reasonable (okay, low -- $10 to $25) prices will sell quicker than large, and glorious, prints in the $250-500 and up range.

Remember, even assuming you are top notch talent, unless or until you have a rep in a high dollar market, you won't be able to charge as much as you will soon realize your photos are worth.

Get a copy of Photographer's Market, learn about copyright and what the going rate is for magazine use. If your pics are really good, maybe you'll find a publication that would buy one. Then you have also established value to any clients. Read the book's advice on marketing your work for publication and follow the advice on how to submit to the market.

Also make sure you clearly establish that any photo you sell to a private buyer cannot be reproduced by the buyer in any way without your permission, remuneration, and credit. And then rather than give them permission when they ask, sell them another print.”

“I went to a art fair last weekend and there was a photographer at one of the booths. He had some great shots and they were definately better than mine, but I didn't think $90 for a matted 8x10 was justified. Granted he used a medium format camera and the highest quality paper.
I'm realy paranoid about the whole copyright thing, that's why I don't post any pics here, only on my private, password protected home page.”

“In the scheme of things, $90 might not be too much. Consider the image and how much went into getting it. If it is a remote site, shot under demanding conditions, and the photographer had to lug his gear, etc. well you see where I'm going, I'm sure. You pay $90 because the photographer took the time to be there and capture a scene you really wish you'd seen yourself.

Copyright in the electronic age is going to be a bitch. All you can do is mark photos appropriately (physically or electronically) and keep good records so if you ever have to litigate, you'll have proof.”

“Reptiles, unless you're uploading photo files in the 10 megabyte range and larger, chances are they don't have resolution sufficient to obtain a decent print anyway. I have lots of my work on the web, located here but none of it exceeds 72 dpi, and few of my files are larger than 200k in size. I suppose the possibility of piracy for web use exists, but that doesn't really concern me. I know nobody can reproduce a good print large enough to market from my files because of their size and resolution.”

“So come on, let's see YOUR stuff!”

“So THIS is where the challenge comment I read about elsewhere came up. (just kidding Hobbit, I read your response :-)

Hobbit, I don't know that this is a problem, but I keep hearing the software (I guess) program Genuine Fractals being bandied about. I've heard you can do amazing things with low resolution pics. Then again, I've never seen the program myself.

REPTILES, here's my take on selling shots. If you wanna sell an 8x10 or get into the 16x20 range, you are going to have to have the bucks up front to PAY for that. And you probably need to buy at least four shots to price them "per picture" at a somewhat reasonable to high price (and make some $$ yourself)

I once got called about a scenic shot of mine that was in a Sunday paper travel story. The guy wanted the shot -- not only one shot, but TWO!! (He had grown up in the area and also wanted a print for his brother)

I sweated figuring out a price. If I remember, my processor was charging $35 apiece for a 16x20 on quality paper. OK, that's $140 there. After much thought and research I came up with $100 for the first print and $60 for the second (a "volume" discount) to hopefully make it more palatable. He was a bar owner in a city and didn't flinch.

So by doing that I still have two 16x20s. One I MAY keep. The other I intend to take to a frame shop in the Mississippi River town where I shot it. Anyway, I've already paid my processing fees with the first two sales and anything else is "gravy."

Oh, and I sold them as a prints alone (no matting nor framing)

I have another gal who's seen a fall shot and really wants to buy it for her father. I don't have the bucks to do what I did above. So....... do I sell her the inkjet print she's seen? Or ask her to pay a much higher price than I'm sure she expects? So far I've done nothing (surely blowing this one off). I WON'T sell the inkjet, cuz even if I warn her it'll fade, well, it goes to her father as a gift. He isn't necessarily gonna know that and then my name is crap when it does fade.

Dilemmas!!!! How true!!”

“Don't be afraid to ask for what they are worth! Artist should not be bashful about pricing their work. Alot of "corporate clients" are more worried about when you can deliver than the price. At fairs or shows, you want some lower priced stuff, to keep your booth busy. A busy booth draws more business. Some exhibitors even put out a dish of hard candies. People just have to "chat-up" with an exhibitor who hooks 'em up with candy. Just keep the other exhibitors away from you goodies!”

“I know where you are coming from. After opening a outdoor gear store it was odd selling to friends. But business is business and real friends would not expect you to give them the stuff. You have you time, equipment etc. in it. You could do somekind of discount if you want say a %. That would make you feel better.

First set the price so people know how much then if you give your friends a discount do it from that price.

It is hard to this I know but hey you would expect the same from them right?

Barbara (CGHiker)

PS try selling some of your stuff in a outdoor store, we do that and people do buy.
I have a friend who does the same as you and this works out great. We get a % of the total sales.”

“Sell your stuff in Barb's store. She is all but offering.”

“I sell a couple hundred 3x5 prints made up as note cards a year. Most are local shots and I sell them in the local businesses. From that I will sell maybe a hundred 8x12 unmounted prints to people who want something bigger. And 20 or so matted and framed prints.
I don't really get my time back but do cover costs and buy a lens every once and a while, just got a 800 f4 cheap. Now and then you can get lucky, sold two year rights
to a couple of prints to Kodak few years back.
It takes alot of money and time to produce a real sellable print.”

“I've heard it's best to use a medium format camera.

I saw a story on tv about a couple with kids that would travel/hike and take pics of themselves or the kids. They either had an agent or co. that was helping them. For example, the two kids sitting under an umbrella in the rain could be used to sell kids products or the pics of the parents in a nice surround could sell anything from life insurance to health products.”

“beware of stock picture companies”

“trinity trekker, how many different shots are in those numbers? Or are they all of the same shot? Thanks!”

“Gee lizs each shot is different. As to subject, sometimes a 36 frame role is just one. Different settings, lens and angles. If I'm doing a flower, I'll bracket, thats a f-stop up and down, that alone is 3-5 frames. You only get to take a picture once, the more frames shot the better chance of getting something worth the effert.”

“tt....goof!! I know those things and practice those things. GEEZ!!! lol! I'm not a total novice here. (Please look at my earlier post on this thread -- yes, I have sold prints to individuals, magazines, newspapers, etc ... and been in some exhibits)

I am asking the subject variety of your 3x5s and other enlargements. My theory is you get a shot, get as many prints of it as you can afford (to get a volume pricing discount) and then price'em to make some money.

How many different shots/scenes/subjects are in your 200 3x5s? Are they all they same shot? Are they sold in card sets of maybe 4 or 8 different shots (but complementary subjects)?

I am limited on bucks as to how many different shots I can get enlarged at one time, so I have to be very picky and go with just one or two due to the economics of it.

Where do you get notecards made? Or are you doing the "Photographer's Edge" thing -- the place in Colorado Springs that sends out nice card stock you place your own shots in? Thanks!”

“I'm sorry Lizs, I misunderstood what you were asking.
I've been doing this for about six years now and I have a lot of pictures that I've made up and went nowhere. I have attempted maybe 150 different shots as cards and right now there's about 25 that sell well, with another 25 selling 5 or less. On the bigger prints I make up,( print ), 4 @ of the biggest seller and have them ready when asked. It is usually cheaper to print more than one at a time.
On the note cards, this is how I do it: After I decide on a pic, (slide), I get a interneg made, one 4x6 as a control print and 10 3x5s. Right now the interneg is $2 4x6 free, the 3x5s are .35@.
Then it's off to the office supply store for 110 lb card stock, comes in many colors to match prints. Then I set up labels, on the computer, two to an 8x11 sheet. This takes some work in layout. I have a name & such that goes on the backside too. Then it's print, cut the sheet in half and fold the halfs in half. At this point you have a quarter sheet with a label running along one edge of a face and an ID on the back.
I now use 3M photo spray achieves on the back of the print and stick it on the labeled side of the paper. You now have a note card and this card fits in an invitation envelope. I take this and put it in a cheap sandwich bag and staple an ID label thing on the top.
At .35 cents a print, this whole thing runs .55 cents made up. I sell them for $1.50 to the stores and they sell them for $2.
I got into doing this because there was no local post card pictures and I was just enjoying the picture taking thing. I really don't know if I cover the time but I like the idea that my pictures are going all over the world.
On the other hand I have a neighbor that does 8x12s and goes to all the craft shows and such. He mats the prints and sells the for $20.00. That's about 6.50 a print, in mass, another 4 for the mat. But he works hard at it, on the road a lot between the shows and taking pics. However he claims 2-3 thousand dollar weekends.
Anyway Lizs I hope this more what you were looking for and if you send me an address I will send you one of mine. E-mail the address to trinitytrekker@tds.net
I am currently changing over to digital printing, the cost is a little more but the picture quality is unreal. Slide quality with digital imagery.”

“Cool trinity trekker! (sorry to come down like a hard @ss... musta been in a bad mood earlier today)

Thanks for all the info -- JUST what I was looking for. So are you saying you get the 4x6 interneg for $2 and then another 4x6 free, before getting into the 3x5s? You must have a good printer. I wouldn't trust my local shop to do that -- their 3x5s or 4x6s NEVER look quite so good as the slide. Then again, they're not pros and I wasn't getting color matched or anything.

We'll have to write, trinity, or maybe we should talk here, since others say they would like to sell prints, too.

What program are you using for laying out the card? I can use Pagemaker, which gives good control. Also, I have this little cheap-@ass program Corel Print House on my computer. You don't even have to think how to layout a half or quarter-fold card, you just follow their examples. (Although, it also does not have guidelines, etc, or many control features. I've done a lot of print layouts, so know how you lay out cards and brocures "by scratch," but that Print House is great for a "no-brainer.")

I have done quarter-fold cards on that, with a photo imported from my scanned slides on the front. Looked good to me, but I haven't tried to market. I don't know how something like that would come out pricewise. My inkjet will run slightly heavier paper -- card stock. Is that what you mean by going to digital printing?”

“Don't stop now you two, I'm listening intently.”

“My ears are ringing........... :-)”

“Here's a couple programs promoting photographers making their own notecards. Sadley, the Photographer's Edge one is not fully functional, but does gave a toll-free phone number to get their catalog.



Ancient Images card marketing program

I find that program in the second listing interesting, probably especially interesting to you, Hobbit. I don't have the bucks to do the test market program, but it sounds like it COULD work well. Plus, check out the guy's images throughout the rest of the website. He's got some nice stuff -- and it's UTAH!!”

“GEEZ, I thought I had making links down!! Let's try again!!

Ancient Images marketing program”

“well, got ONE right.......LOL!

Again, again, I'll try the other one!!

Photographer's Edge”

“Man, can I lose those last two posts! The one does not link right!!!

Photographer's Edge

Ancient Images test marketing program

Please let these work!! (Or you guys will outlaw me from posting!!!)”

“I normally shot 35mm slide film. So, from that I will get a interneg made and a 4x6 print. This print represents the whole picture. Now sometimes I don't like how the colors in the print come out, so we print over until I get what I like. With a print that I like, I will now crop what I need to make a 3x5.
I now take the interneg and the 4x6, with the indicated cropping, to be printed. The real reason for the 4x6 is on the back are a whole string of numbers that tells the computer how to print the colors.
I use a color lab for the interneg and 4x6 work and until lately a cheapie 1 hr place for the 3x5s. I am now changing over the whole thing to digital. What this will do is do away with the interneg.
The lab I use just bought a $400,000 digital scanner that scans a slide or neg. and put in on a CD. This will save wear and tear on the negatives and slides and when printed off the CD will be digital. If you have ever played with digital development you know what can be done, change the color of just one tree in the forest, add & subtract light. Put in things that aren't there, on and on.
The label printing is just done with Word. I have set up a pattern and just plug in when a new card is made up. I do have a file for each of the one made up.
I use a HP 692 inkjet and it takes the 110 lb paper fine.”