Tents & Packs - Refining My packweight G oal

“OK, if you've been following the packweight thread, you know that I've been focusing my efforts on refining my approach to lightening the load. I really apprecaite your helpful comments, but I've embarked on a mission with a few bumps in the road, and I need input (Call me Johnny 5...LOL)

As I peruse the BP Gearguide (they can't have EVERYTHING in there, can they?), I find limited options for a pack with the features I want - a week's worth of volume (3500-4000 c.i.?), under 5.5 pounds, a couple exterior pockets, hybrid/panel loading, separate bottom compartment for the bag, and a pocket, perhaps two, for a bottle of water - or hydration possibility. At the moment, I'm considering an internal, as I already have a Kelty Super Tioga (6#, 12 oz.).

BP Gearguide seems to have limited options, but it's hard to know without actually seeing and trying on the pack. Perhaps I'm also overlooking some that, initially, have specs that don't fit the mold.

I also have an SD Orion (1999), and the specs say it weighs 5.5#, pack weight. I did a lot of research on this one, the parameters being free-standing, under 6#, room for two, with a vestibule for stowing gear. It received several good reviews, even by BP magazine, and so, I popped for it.

Now, in my goal to further lighten my weight (so far, it appears I'll be hiking solo), I'm wondering if I should consider a tent, tarp, or bivy? Little interest in the latter, but, the MH Batray 2 sure looks inviting...

How about some help, friends? I'd like to drop 2# on the pack, and 1# on the tent... whadya think?”

“Pose this same question to the gearheads on
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackpackingLight/messages

They love nothing better than to take your pack apart and put it back together.


Do you have a scale yet? The weights that manufacturers put out for things are often big lies. For example--my North Face Slickrock tent I bought last year is supposed to be four pounds. It is, if you leave out the stakes and the stuffsack. I bought some Nike sandals last week--supposed to be 6.5 ounces. They probably are in some size much smaller than mine. They also forgot to tell me that this weight is for each sandal.

Anyway--take the scale with you when you shop.

The Kelty Enlighten packs are the best you can do for a pack with a frame. The GVP and Golite packs can only carry loads under 20 pounds. I own a GVP and like it but now I have the Kelty I seem to use it all the time.”

“If I want technical advice I go to rec.backcountry

rec.backcountry is a newsgroup. If you are using Netscape you can subscribe to this newsgroup through the message center. If you use IE you will need Outlook Express. Outlook does not access newsgroups.

The newsgroups are a forum similiar to TT with the same amount of nut jobs we have here, but a few folks who are into serious mountaineering. Some of these guys have been to K2 and Everest.”

“who you callin a nut job?

seriously though, as far as packs and tents are concerned, keep doin research. I can't pretend to know what will suit you best. My personal preference is for an OR bivy and maybe an Osprey Aether 60. Granted, both are too expensive full price (but why pay that??), and the Osprey doesn't have a sleeping bag compartment, but that's my 2 cents.”

“Kelty Gale <3 lbs.
Kelty Noah's Tarp <2lbs
Walrus Net tarp insert 2 lbs.
3D 35 deg. bag 2lbs 7 oz.

all 9.5 lbs.”

“Obi Wan - I'm leaving this evening for a 3 day hike. My total pack weight is 23 lbs, including food, not including clothes on my body. I know I could get it lower, but I'm pretty happy with the weight.

I would like the MSR Titan Solo cookset, that'd shave off half a pound. I'm planning to purchase the Packlite 5300 c.i. pack. That will give me more volume and take off almost a pound and a half.

I'll try to break down the major stuff for you.

Gregory Reality 4650 c.i. = 5lbs 5oz

Hilleberg Akto = 3lbs 6 oz without stuff sacks

The North Face Thunderhead 20 degree bag = 3lbs with stuff sack

Thermarest Explorer 3/4 length = 1 lb 6 oz

MSR Pocket Rocket = 3 oz

MSR Water Works 2 = 19 oz

Peak 1 Stainless Steel 1 qt pot, and half qt pot = 18 oz

Lexan spoon = 2 oz

Plastic Tumbler = 2 oz

MSR Dromlite 2 liter water bag = 3 oz

Petzl Micro headlamp = 5 oz with batteries

First Aid and Hygiene = 15 oz

Little John Trowel and paper = 4 oz

Pack Towl = 1 oz

Silva Ranger Compass = 2 oz

REI Fleece Jacket (I think Woodland is the model) = 14 oz

Wigwam Merino Wool Comfort Hiker (1 extra pair) = 3 oz

Helly Hansen rain jacket and pants = 13 oz

I think that's about everything. Let's see that comes to, what? 19 lbs 9 oz. Then add 3 days food, yeah, that's probably right.

My filter is heavy, but I've had girdiasis before, and will not sacrifice anything in that category. 3 days in the hospital and then 2 weeks of outpatient I.V. fluids.

The Akto is an awesome tent for the soloist. You should really check into it.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Good luck.”

“I can't personally vouch for it, but I've heard nothing but good from Kelty's lightweight bags, though the Cloud series seems awefully expensive.

As far as tent goes, as pisgahforest said, depends on what you want. I got the Kelty Clark, at 3.3lbs I'm pretty happy. My first non-freestanding tent ever, and even on slickrock there's always rocks to use in lieu of stakes, so no biggie. $130 if you pay full price.
Bigger than a bivy; rather small vestibule.”

“MP, yea, I have a scale - it's a postal scale, actually, and it measures in both grams and ounces, up to about 36 ounces. Everything I have has been weighed on it, except my tent, pack, and bag. For those, I'll be taking them to a shipping business locally to use their mondo scale!

Pisgah, I been lookin' at that Osprey you menioned... seems to be a nice pack, and I plan to do a visual on it within the next couple weeks.

M-nutz, thanks for that listing... I got the Lite Rest T-Rest, at 15 oz., & my PUR Hiker weighs in at 17.4. I'll check into the Akto, saw it in the gear guide... I've got this mental block, though, about non-free-standing tents... I gotta get over that one, and when I do, maybe I can look at them with a new, fresh perspective, one that will allow me to shave a few more ounces.

for what it's worth, friends, I'm relying most heavily on your personal experiences. Data I can get on my own. What I NEED is YOUR experiences, and thanks for your contributions!”

“M nutz, Is the Akto big enough for one person plus winter gear? Also, can you sit up in it without hitting your head.”

“Getting the pack weight down:

1) Rain gear, buy an ?old navy Anorak?, it doesn?t work well in heavy or medium rain, but if a light drizzle is all that is expected, go for it. In addition, it only weighs a few ounces.

2) Summer sleeping bag, just buy a sleeping bag liner, there cheap light and very compactable. I?m talking about the tine silk or coolmax ones, NOT the fleece ones.

3) Stove: Make an alcohol stove.

4) Buy a smaller backpack then you think you need, thus you are forced to carry less.”

“mnutzo, that tent is awesome! It looks pretty roomie for the weight. It appears that you can just use the fly by itself? What's the weight on that?
Interesting company, thanks for the tip.

Gregory Reality is a kick a$$ pack. :o)

Another shelter option that I have pondered (but have no experience with, sorry) is the "cave shelter" - I think its GoLite(?) or maybe PacLite...I am sure that Nigal or MaryPhyl know. The Lightweight Backpacker is a great site for lightweight info.”

“WOTH, that's so true: a void begs to be filled, in a backpack more than elsewhere I fear.

For warm weather, I'm making a concerted effort to give my feet and knees a break with minimal or very light gear. So I have shelter down to under 3#, sleeping bag to 2#, a 3/4-length Thermarest Ultralite at 1# and much more compact than a lighter Ridgerest, and a pack under not much more than 3# that will take a 4+ liter hydration system. And I have an Orinoco fill-and-squeeze water purifier to step in for my First Need. I ordered a MSR Pocket Rocket today at 3 oz., which should work well for my simple boil and reconstitute "cooking" and only $23 at that (had to see what canister stoves were all about). But I can only go so far with the really light -- even at a discount, I couldn't swallow a 2 oz. MSR titanium kettle for over $30, let alone $50. My steel 16oz. cup with folding handles may weigh a couple ounces more, but I'll manage.

Over 20+ years, I've gone from an 8+ lbs. tent, to a 4+ lbs. tent, to a 2.25 lb. Hennesy Hammock and an under 3 lb. solo tent/bivy that I'll be trying this summer. Knocking off 6 lbs. of tent is a great step forward itself.

Come colder weather though, it will likely be back to my larger pack so I can carry my Cat's Meow, full-length Ridgerest, white gas stove, and the 4+ lb. tent, along with that bulky fleece that feels so good.”

“I have gone backpacking overnight with my camelbak blow fish many times. I packed next to nothing, however those trips where some of my favorite ones.

-Wrath of the Hiker”

“For those of you ultra-lighters, you have to keep in mind that Obi is mostly hiking in the Sierras (that IS true, isn't it, Dear?).
John Muir mighta' done well with a wool blanket, rifle, hard tack and a change of underwear (a JOKE)..
But that was 100 years ago, and hardship was the norm.
There are some things that weigh that you need up here.
Oh, PLEASE Obie...
Don't tell me you plan to cut off the map borders and the handle of your toothbrush.

I know, I know....
All those eliminated ozzies add up to pounds, but when you're carrying more than 40 pounds on your back, you don't really notice five pounds more.
And when you're carrying 50 pounds...
It's the same.
Light packing is relative to the hiker.
Comfort is also relative.
Sweetheart Darlingface...
Take all our advice with a grain of salt, then put it on your back for a three day hike and see how it feels.
How many miles do you REALLY want to go each day? And do you plan for any of those miles to be rugged XC?
Controlled variables like this can make a lot of difference in what you carry.
I mean...
You can hike naked, and drop a pound off by leaving your clothes behind.”

“Mel, you make me smile. Actually I've never taken a scale to go shopping, but I should have. Every self respecting gear store should have a scale.
I am so much happier hiking light. Everything I have is the lightest I could find that will serve my purposes. I am warm and well fed and because everything is so light I am able to take more than one toy with me and it is still light. I feel like I am dancing instead of plodding.”

“I have the same goal, I bought the following items:

1: Kelty Flight 60, the cheepest of the Enlighten Series $225. 4.lbs (modular pack, my prefrence weighs 3.lbs)

2: TNF 800 fill down bag 15 deg. long 6'6" 2.lbs 13.oz $199.

3: Tarp Tent Ray Jardine design (home made) 2.lbs $20.

4: Alcohol Stove (Pepsi Can design) .5oz
free design www.pcthiker.com

5: Petzl Tikka headlamp 4oz with 3 AAA batteries. $35. batteries included

6: I want the Eureka Solo tent, the tarp seems a little too much trouble. Tent weighs 2.lbs 8.oz $70. sleeps 1

My dry weight is about 15 lbs :) I don't skimp on food, thats the go juice!”

“ThinAir: If you want that Eureka solo, go now to globalmart.com -- or find the thread here at TT and use the link -- in the outdoor section, find the Eureka icon and you'll see they have the Gossamer (alum. poles) for just <$64 and the Solitaire (fiberglass)for just <$54. Globalmart is having a big sale that ends Monday 5/7, so I don't know if this is the regular discount price on the tents. Other great prices, too.”

“Does anyone know of a accurate scale that I can buy at a reasonable cost? I suppose it should be able to weigh up to about 5 pounds in graduations of one ounce or so.
I guess I could shave a couple of ounces here and there.

As far as some of the lengths people will go to lighten their packs, I don't understand it. Good aluminum cookware does not weight that much more than titanium cookware. Be honest, we're talking about a 1/2 ounce here. Maybe an ounce at the outside. I'd use the extra money on a couple of cases of quality brew. And these tents I see that don't have zippable door panels and are all mesh. You may get away with one most of the time but one of these days a good wind/rain storm is going to catch you redhanded. All your clothes, and that lightweight down sleeping bag you are so proud of, are going to be drenched. Of course your stupid buds who hauled all that extra gear are going to make room in their nice warm, dry tent in order to get you out of a jam. But they are going to resent it.

Most of that lightweight stuff (i.e. packs, tents, tarps. etc.) falls apart after two years anyway. That's why Ray Jardine always made his own gear. He had to make it every other year! Give me quality, 3-1/2 season, heavyduty, stuff.

Bawhhh Humbug on all the rest!”

“I just have a diet scale--the kitchen kind. I don't think it is terribly accurate but it is close enough. About the only thing I weigh anymore is my food. This can be really helpful. Fow example--I figured the boyfriend and I would need about 13 pounds of food for our last trip. I packed up all I thought we would need but when I weighed it I only had nine pounds. I added stuff and when we hiked out there was less than a pound left.”

“My two cents - Gregory Forester backpack @ 4900 cu. inches & 5 lbs. 3 oz. Tons of features, & I love it. It's not ultra-lite, but for any other kind of hiking, it's great.”

“solitary hiker didn't get his coffee this morning :( Lightweight stuff works! :)”

“Hey thanks Pekka, I think I'm gonna wait for a while though. I just bought a bunch of gear over the last couple of months. Just cant justify spending anymore cash for now. I will be checking out that site more in the future:)”

“Obi ...you can buy the fastpack footprint to the Orion and just take the fly, poles, stakes and leave the tent body at home, when the insects are not a problem. It's supposed to weigh 3 lbs 4 oz if you do it that way. According to REI.”

“Hey Obi, I think Mel made a good point - destination /location can mean a lot. I've been reading the posts since I started the packweight thread, and there are considerations you and I might have given where we are that others might not have(and vice verse, of course). I pack differenly if I'm going to Pt Reyes on the coast than if I'm going somewhere along the PCT. Time of year determines extra warm cloths as well. On our upcoming Desolation Valley trip I'll probably bring a pair of longjohns to sleep in and a fleece shirt for eve, usually wouldn't in the summer. It all adds up...”

“Wanderer, you are so right. Let me further refine my comments - first, Mel is right, in the following sense (I luuuuuuuv ya, blondie). I wrote my initial thread BASED on the premise that I would be hauling a pack for a week to two weeks - it could be anywhere, but Mel's pretty much on the money about WHERE I'd like to do more hikes. For me, the Sierra's (aka, Sierra Crest) from Tahoe to south of Whitney, are a form of cathedral to me. It's no beter or worse, prettier or whatever, than anyone else's favorite terrain. It's just that mine happens to be Mel's backyard, and when I talk about packweight - with respect to Wanderer, Wind Walker (Yea, I checked into the footprint) Thin Air & MaryPhyl (you really need to dump that kitchen scale, hon. I got one, and compared THOSE weights to those just compiled on the postal scale... 7 pound difference!!!), I'm beholden to the idea that it truly DOES depend on where I'm going, conditions, ad infinitum. My "list" is such that I can include or disinclude items which are automatically added or dropped from the total weight column. No, I don't cut the edges off my maps, and no, I don't drill holes in the toothbrush. You're right, Mel, about just plain not really noticing such miniscule weight savings. Comfort is the essence of my list, in that I can include items of luxury, see the weight, and if I conclude it's inconsequential, I pack it.”

“LOL a one pound sack of spaghetti weighs one pound on my scale.

I figure that usually when you have to take a lot of warm clothes and a tent you have some reduction in the water you have to carry. The toys can stay home then.

Choosing your season for certain hikes is smart too. Spring and fall are the only possible times for me to hike areas that have no water for more than a day.”

“Use your digital bathroom scale when you start getting beyond 25 pounds.
You weigh your food on the postal scale, "per item", as you put it together (if you're dehydrating it yourself), or repackaging store bought, and add it all up when it's done.
Then....
You put a big bag full of all those little bags on top of the digital scale to see how much the food weighs.
A one pound can of Tang is still going to weigh one pound even after you take it out of the can and put it into a ziploc.

Weigh the larger, heavier things (sleeping bag, white gas in the bottle, cooking set, your books, a can of beer) on a meat scale that goes up to 50 pounds.
Uh..
That kind of scale should be available at a restaurant supply place....maybe Smart and Final, or ask someone there where you might find one of those scales.
I have one and I used to use the hell out of it.

Most things you buy will already list their weight.
Before I order anything from a catalog, I first check out the listed weight.
That goes for shoes, tents, socks, gas bottle, cooksets..
Everything.
I keep track of it all.. all the things that are eventually going into my pack.
I'm sure that this isn't new to many of you, but if you have a list of things, and their weight as listed in a catalog, you can dispense with a lot of this weighing stuff.
What really adds up is the food.
Do the postal scale for that sh!t, then get it into stuff sacks and weigh them on the digital scale.
Beer is last.”

“Obi - I know what you mean about the "non-freestanding thing". I felt the same way for a long time. But I used the Akto on my Canyonlands trip and had no problems at all. If you saw my pics, you can see it pitched on slickrock, tied off to small rocks.

RichB - I'm 5'10" and can sit up comfortably in the tent. It is definately big enough for one person and winter gear, that's actually what it is designed for. It's pretty warm in the summer, unless you have everything open.

Which leads me to AmyG's question. Yes, you can use the fly alone, creating a kind of teepee-type floorless tent. You can also pitch the inner without the fly, giving you a nice option in warm and buggy locales. Or you can (from inside the tent) partially detatch the inner, giving you more room for cooking and stuff in the winter.

The quality is impeccable. The outer material (Kerlon 1500) is the same stuff used in hot-air balloons. Tear-strength of 33 lbs, most fly-material has a tear strength of 7 lbs or less. The seams are not taped and they DO NOT reccomend seam-sealing, in fact they are opposed to it. Because of the material used and sewing technique, the seams will NOT leak or seep.

Check out the website for a free full-color 63 pg catalog. Oh, and free-shipping, too. Excellent customer-service, quick e-mail responses, and (the deal-maker) I think Petra (Hilleberg) is a hottie. Okay, I haven't seen her, but I have seen those Swedish bikini team commercials, and her accent is KILLIN' me!”

“Shut up about pack weight!

If you want all the comforts of home, stay the F home!
If you want to backpack, take a freakin sleeping bag and a tarp, and hit the trail. Leave all your bull SHIT lightweight expensive mother scratchin idiot proof gadgets up your A$$ where they belong!

Did anyone see that movie BLOW? It was strange!”

“Solitary Hiker : I bought a postal scale at Office Max for $9.95
It will weight up to 5 pounds and has 1/2 ounce graduations”

“POSTAL SCALE!!!!! F THAT!!!!”

“here's my main items that i have stuck with:

gregory forester 4900ci - 5, 3
eureka gossamer - 2, 8
fleece blanket - hmm <1, 0
snow peak gigapower - 0, 3.5
pur hiker - dunno, but it's light

i've been extremely satisfied with them all.”

“Cancel my subscription to the resurrection
Send my credentials to the house of detention
I got some friends inside”

“Get a motherscratchen Osprey 3000ci pack, a Goddang standard OR Bivy, a freakin TNF Thunderhead bag, a bitch ass PUR hiker filter, and some SOB Clif Bars, and shut the F up!”

“M-nutz, Thanks for all the great info on the Akto. I have a Hilleberg catalog, but couldn't really tell how big the Akto was. The Nallo looks pretty nice too.”

“RichB - Yeah, if I didn't already have a great 2 man tent, I would buy a Nallo, too.

You've got the 2001 catalog? Do you suppose the blonde on page 5 is Petra? Hmm, just curious. I think I have a crush (blush)!”

“Thanks hangman. There's an Office Max not more than five miles from here. I'll check it out.”

“Yes, I have the 2001 catalog. I guess she could be Petra, but maybe in the 2002 catalog we'll know for sure. I'm thinking about buying a Nallo before next winter as a solo winter tent. I like the extra room for just a little extra weight and bulk.”

“Tarp Rat... what have I done to you to so unwittingly invite your insightful invective?

I started this thread to help MYSELF, not give you a forum for demonstrating your debating talents. While you can post anything you wish, and post it anywhere you want, your response would have found a more patient reader in me if you would have contributerd to my goal, rather than detract from it.

How about something constructive for a change? Pertinent to my original posting, that is... if you have nothing to contribute, I invite you to exercise restraint, or start your own thread on the topic of YOUR choice. If I have something postive to add to THAT, you'll be certain to hear from me.”

“Re-reading this thread. A Jr size toothbrush works great and you still get a handle.”

“I have a cool little Excel spread sheet that will calculate your pack weight. You can put all of your gear and weights in it and then check off what you plan to take and it adds it all up. A fellow on the backpackinglight egroup let everyone use it so I think it is alright to offer it here. EMail me if you want it and I'll pass it along. mary”

“Tarpie just wants an excuse to use the F word again, and quote the Doors.”

“That's right!”