Smells like children...

“After last night I have a question to ask. Have things changed since I was a kid and went camping with my parents? We were taught to be quiet in camp grounds during the day and you whispered at night. I went camping at a state park for a bit of night fishing and am so fed up with parents who have kids that they don?t control. And there's no talking to the parents. The Mullethead family near us was so disrespectful. Their kids were carrying on until 11 and then they started back up at 6 AM. Yeah, I know, it?s a state park but it still pisses me off! Please tell me Trailbuddy's not right! 8)

The same rule should apply to kids as to dogs, if you can?t control it, leave it at home, and if the damn thing bites have it put down.

End of Rant”

“I think loud kids should be put down as well.
(jest kiddin)”

“I think disrespectfull kids with no morals should be put down”

“It's the quiet kids you need to watch most!”

“Nigal, I believe people have changed. The in-your-face nature of most modern media combined with the "I can do whatever I want" mass misinterpretation of "rights" that has taken hold in our poorly educated society (my wife calls it the "Look at ME! Look at ME! syndrome), salted with a good dose of "It's not my fault/problem" victimology, has left us with a significant portion of the population that has little concern for others. To too many persons, "rules" are for suckers. I have to admit, that was a big part of Clinton's charm. The payback, of course, is that it carries over from personal behavior to institutional behavior -- corporations laughing at the rules, disturbing whole communities rather than campgrounds.

BPers are, unfortunately, a tiny minority which has somehow internalized the benefits of serenity in nature (leavened with regular doses of campfire hilarity, of course).”

“Another family reunion gone bad, eh Mr.Nigal?”

“I thought this was a thread about diaper pails. I'll be glad when my youngest is out of diapers. No matter how hard I try, my house "smells like children." ;o)

When my kids want someone to play, color, read to them, my ex says my children are pampered. When I complain that 10:00/11:00 is way too late for our six and three year old to stay up, I'm too strict. Unfortunately, many people allow society to raise their children and we are seeing the results.

BTW, I strongly dislike campgrounds. You have more privacy and peace in an apartment in the *burbs*.

I just caught myself sounding like my parents. My children had dinner and later we went to DQ for dilly bars. They're whining how they are "starved!". I told them, "There are hungry people in the world. You don't know what starving is!" Someone please help me! I don't want to grow up to be like my mother. ;oP”

“lol sunshine...i thought it was a diaper thread too...heh”

“I think we raise our kids like we were raised except where we think our folks messed up.”

“Perhaps I am overly pessimistic but after working around kids for the past 7 years,I am terrified of what the future holds. These times they are a changin' for sure!”

“I completely agree with you, Pekka. As a teacher of young elementary school children, I observe family situations and habits whenever the opportunity presents itself. One thing I have noticed repeatedly is that many parents decline to set strong boundaries and make the decisions for appropriate behavior of their children. There is a positive aspect to authority that seems to have been lost in the "question authority" gesture. I don't intend to demean parents or diminish the challenges parenting presents...I think it's the hardest and most important task in life. However, I've seen enough children who wield the true power of the family life to know that many parent-child relationships are out of balance. Then you take a situation like yours, Sunshine, where the other parent disagrees with your beliefs, and you've got an incredible challenge.

I went to a lecture by an experienced teacher named Eugene Schwartz a couple of years ago and he made a point that has really stuck with me. He said, regarding the setting of boundaries, that you often hear children say "My parents don't care if I do...."; looking at that another way, "My parents don't care enough to not let me do....". I have experienced that when strong boundaries are set, the child is allowed to relax, knowing they don't have to make so many choices. (That does not mean that they will not constantly test those boundaries, either!)

I hope this doesn't sound like preaching...this is a topic I have been working intensively with for three years and it's easy for me to get passionate and opinionated!”

“I think parents are too concerned with being their child's friend instead of parent.

Nigal you shouldn't joke about having kids "put down". It's not funny. (and I'd like to think I have a pretty good sense of humour)”

“Popular Campgrounds (and easy hike to Lakes) have always been loud with kids and adults alike. For kids thats the fun of camping. Staying up late, playing capture the flag, etc.
Last year I went camping on a 3 day weekend and will never do it again”

“I like how my children are raising their children. My grandkids are always polite and well behaved at my house.

Instead of being pissed I suggest you speak up--tell the kids it is time for quiet games and that they can be noisy again tomorrow. One of my daughters tells her kids they can say anything they want as long as they whisper.”

“Public campgrounds have "quiet times":
10 PM to 6 AM.

You just try to NEVER camp near anyone with small children, teenagers, boomboxes, or overly romantic single couples.”

“I don't know what it was like "back in the good old days" but I don't see kids acting any worse now than kids did when I was growing up. Maybe I just hung out with all the bad kids, but I don't think so.”

“Kids are just like anyone else. Some are good. Some are bad. But, generally, I think there are more good than bad.

I am positive about the future. I look at some of my graduating seniors - I'm a teacher - and there are some that I just know will do amazing things.

If we believe in the next generation and work hard, they will create things that we can only dream of.

BTW, I like campgrounds.”

“I only stay at campgrounds if I'm traveling. It's cheaper than a motel. Other than that, I avoid them.”

“Joy- It was all in humor but I do concede it was a bad joke. No disrespect.

Please don?t think that I hate children either because I don?t. I have nieces and nephews I love very much. After a day of reflection I must say that it isn?t the children that are the problem, it?s their parents. Every single person will naturally want to revert to it?s natural state and their behavior is 100% dependant upon how much discipline is developed in them. I also admit that I know a lot of good kids too and it is because of their parents. I have to pray and hope that this really isn?t the Beavis and Butthead generation.”

“Nigal, I gotta agree with you and Joy. Parents are too often concerned with being a friend and not a parent. Too often I see kids screaming in a store and the parents won't even tell the kids "that's not acceptable". They just let them make a ruckus and do NOTHING to control their kids. Heaven forbid they be called control freaks.

We stayed a t Blackwoods campground in Acadia in April. It's the only all year campground there. For the most part there were considerate campers, quiet, enjoying nature,etc... BUTTTT- ther was this one teenager putting the moves on a girl that he was obviously sweet on...You know, he was bragging and carrying on, loudly I might add. Serves him right that he struck out!!!! Hahahaha

I might have said something to them had I any faith that it would have done any good. Have I given in the disrespect, shown so often these days, that I didn't even try to ask for a little courtesy?????? I think I gotta step up to the plate next time.

I think these situations show a bad picture of the realities of today. Makes you wonder if Norman Rockwell could even have drawn a single memorable picture.”

“Here is a quick daiper story. The load belonged to me nephew who was sired by a older brother. Years back, I took my annual vaca to Lake Cumberland to do some fishin. When I return home I was greeted at the door by the smell of 2 day old daiper odor. It smelled like one big Porta-Potty from a chili festiva throughout the house. I could hardly catch my breath. The full diaper was sitting upon the counter by the back door just a few steps from the outside garbage can. After airing out the house the best I could, I called my older brother to thank him and then preceded to formulate my revenge plan.”

“"Someone please help me! I don't want to grow up to be like my mother. ;oP"

Sunshine
8:35:40 PM
5/12/01

Sunshine, your mother seems to have done a good job, so I wouldn't be too worried. :o)

Campgrounds are my nemesis! Every time (twice) I have stayed at a campground, it has been obnoxiously loud...either young children running around screaming or "kids" with boom boxes and beer, sitting around an inferno-campfire. I just think people that use campgrounds, in general, are there to "camp" with all the comforts of home - its a different mindset than we are used to as backpackers.

It does concern me to see kids throwing entitlement tantrums and being rewarded (to shut them up). I was on a bus the other week (my weekly pilgrimage to NYC) and there was a nightmare child on board, running around hitting each seat-back as she passed. When the mother tried to control her and made her sit down, the child started screeeeaming, so the mother tried to bribe her with candy and then just ignored her and allowed her to resume tormenting the passengers. It was a loooonnnng ride - I prayed for death.
(j/k)
;oP
Temper tantrums - a very effective method of training your parents...and these youngsters have it nailed to a science.”

“Nelson Ledges Quarry Park is the place to camp...if'n you like to party! This AIN'T a place for kids.

Check out their Event Calander for upcoming shows...this place is da bomb. And don't expect any sleep!!!”

“Sunshine, one of the funniest things among our China memories was when a Chinese friend, talking about their privations as youth -- real periods of starvation -- told us she was regularly admonished by her parents not to complain about their meager diet because children in AMERICA had even less (apparently based on inner city and Appalachia horror stories). She had no idea that we had been told the opposite by our parents and was very puzzled by our giggles even with an explanation. Marxist dialectics don't seem to have a funny side.”

“I give kudos to today's stressed out parents! I see women at work, who constantly are rushed with job deadlines and projects, then have to go home and have energy to care for their young children. I'm sure their spouse is just at stressed at his job. Right now my company is in the beginning stages of merger. Another in my department has a spouse who works for TWA - just merged with American Airlines. Parents today face many more challenges than when my husband and I were raising our kids 30 years ago. When my kids asked why they couldn't stay out later because their friends could - supposely "their parents didn't care" - I would explain that I DO CARE! I think it all comes back to the parents...they just have a tougher job today counteracting tv, media, friends, etc. I have many nieces and nephews who are doing just fine so I, too, am optimistic about the future. ONe of our nephews participated in one of those national environment challenge contests and his group won with their entry of a barge that has something similar to airbags around the oil to prevent spills upon collision. These kids are going to do great things!”

“OK, let's look at Cosmo magazine (sorry, I still read Cosmo on occasion...lol!)

That mag has turned into a total rag. I just read in disbelief! They are telling our young women things like how to make the moves on a married man, ways to get revenge on someone who stole your boyfriend (like spitting or pissing on their food or worse things you can't even imagine), taking a poll on "what you did when your boyfriend caught you with another man (or woman)?" etc. etc.

It is just disgusting!! These things, against all morales and common sense, are being touted as NORMAL BEHAVIOR.

Gee, I wonder if Seventeen is like that, too???

What is the world coming to?!??!?!?! I don't have kids, never wanted kids, can take some kids in small doses, agree that there are a few good kids out there.... so I don't know how "qualified" I am to comment. But boy, things sure have changed. I guess I've become an old "fuddy duddy." (or just have the sense and morales so lacking today)

There, next up to the soapbox.”

“man, i have stayed at ALOT of campgrounds while travelling and the only times that i have been disturbed were when i was tailgating (not even in a park or established "campground", but waaaayyyyyy back in jeep trails).

mel's right. park's quiet times are usually 10PM. go get a ranger, they'll shut 'em up or kick 'em out.”

“From a mom with an 8 year old and a 6 year old:
1) kids have different personalities that make each child easier or harder to raise into a well-behaved older child. If you don't struggle here, to mold your child into a respectful, thoughtful and gracious young person, you've lost your chance. Unfortunately, many parents are ignoring their children instead of struggling with creating rules and sticking with them.
2) One offspring is quieter and easier to mold than two or more.
3) I was raised to be quiet in campgrounds by parents who simply hit us if we were too loud. I don't do this and finding other effective discipline methods is hard. Almost as hard as my kids' heads. Stubborn.
4) I find that a lot of people were raised to be loud, to stay up late. This is normal to them and they don't understand what our problem is. They are the first to complain about noise in the early AM.
5) I don't think it is realistic to go to a campground with lots of people packed close together and expect real quiet.
6) The schooling a lot of kids get these days is way more creative and mind-involving than what I had.
7) All the sports that kids are in seems to teach a lot of discipline, following instructions.
Okay, so I will try to keep my kids quiet at campgrounds. It is a struggle that is getting easier as they mature. Getting both parents on the same rules page is a struggle too, but we agree to try even if we sometimes botch it. Just remember that even you were sometimes a kid from "yell".”

“I am reiterating some things that were said, but children are not the problem, it IS the parents allowing them to behave badly that are the problem. It's parents who cave to demands, especially while they are outside the house and for some reason won't disipline their kids.

As for camping, I difinetly believe that parents should set limits are their children's loud behavior. This is a parents chance to teach the children how to respect others. Instead the parents choose to let the kids scream themselves to sleep cause it's easier on them at everyone elses expense.”

“Lizs, Seventeen gives tips on how to have great sex and look extra sexy. Worse yet is "Girls Life". This monthes feature article is how to get the look to attract all the guys' attentions. This is marketed to ten-twelve year olds. Whatever happened to childhood?! Does it end at age eight now?

Nigal, I know you didn't really mean it.:^) I was just cranky last night.”

“The most obvious expression of our culture of in-your-face disrespect is the punks who drive around thumping their RAP at max volume to be sure you hear them.”

“steve hiker, it's even weirder -- and maybe more annoying -- when its smalltown Northwoods white kids pretending to be down wid it by blastig rap in their trucks or old rusty Escorts.

On the way home from the Mudders Day mtn. bike race today -- first big race of the season in these parts, 20k won in about 56min. -- passed the Burger King and there for the second day in a row I saw this brand new, shiny giant Dodge Ram full-size 4wd pickup parked with three teen guys staring out at the intersection. This on a sunny, 65 degree Sunday in an area with endless backroads and logging roads ideal for cruising. Apparently he doesn't actually want to drive it, just look cool. Or he can't afford the gas for it anymore.

On the plus side, he wasn't bothering anybody in the woods. Just had to be seen and heard in town.”

“It sounds like those of you without children are pretty much singin' the same tune about parents "controlling" the children.
It doesn't work that way.

All this talk about the good old days is mostly crap.
Norman Rockwell???
Because Norman Rockwell didn't paint any pictures of prisons, did they not exist.

Our culture has certainly changed but human nature has not.
Children who are hit usually grow up to be hitters.
If you want to see so-called discipline just hang out at a shopping mall and you're bound to see some jerk-off hit their child.
THAT is the lazy way to raise children....
....or train a dog for that matter.

If you don't want to be "inconvenienced" by the presence of children move to Leisure World or Boca Del Vista with Morty Seinfeld and the rest of the old farts.

Many years ago when I lived in an apartment my neighbor's little boy--maybe three or four--pretty much had the run of things.
He would climb on my motorcycle and, much to my consternation, his parents would just watch.
One day I parked the bike and the little bugger ran excitedly to it.
Before I could stop him he got burned on the still-hot exhaust pipe.
That's one kind of training.

Like someone else said, they are all different as are their parents.
I'm quite fond of young people and people in general.

Beavis and Butthead have been around since before I was born and will be with us always.

Nigal-
Offer it up dude.
Suffer the little children unto me.”

“Haha! Tom Terrific using bible verses!? Too rich! I'm not suffering the children...I wanna suffer their stupid parents who are more concerned with being a buddy than a parent. Kids don't need buddies, they need disiplin and guidance, and no, a person doesn't have to have kids to know this. It's common sense.

Yes, kids who were hit grow up to be hitters. Proper spanking (and by this I mean spanking when not angry) a child is NOT hitting them and will have a positive outcome in the long term.”

“Tom, I don't think the concept of "controlling" children is realistic, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that parents do so. Setting and consistently maintaining the boundaries of appropriate behavior is not the same thing as controlling children. I have a class of 17 lively and rowdy children aged 8 and 9 years old and, to be honest, there are days when I wish I could control their behavior. However, I don't wish to dampen their high-spiritedness because then I would be trying to mould them into something I want, rather than honoring who they are. But I can expect and model behavior that is conducive to a productive and enlivening educational experience. That is part of my task as a teacher and I think it is complimentary to the task of parents.

It's a shame that those parents allowed their child to burn himself....I can think of several other ways that a 3/4 yr old could injure himself around a motorcycle. I would never allow a child to put him/herself in that type of situation no matter how cute it was that he/she loved motorcycles.

I don't think there is such a thing as the "good old days", but I do know this. Media targeted for young children is sending scary messages these days. I recently saw the Disney movie "Hercules" to prepare for a presentation to the parents of my class. The dialogue was sarcastic, disrepectful, and in some instances offensive. The muses were dressed sexily, like Vegas showgirls, and their dialogue was filled with innuendo. This was not the Disney I grew up with in the 60's! This is not a rare circumstance either...watch any tv show or movie for children to find similar examples. I was not aware of the situations that Joy and Liz describe, but they are examples of the same thing. Children learn to behave according to what they observe and experience from the adults around them.”

“As the parent of two teen girls with distinctly different personalities, and a community college teacher who gets a fair number of recent h.s. grads in his classes, I've been exposed to a variety of exuberent young persons. Not all are disrespectful, and some are not intentionally disrespectful. The latter who end up in my classes are troubling because they have managed to get through to age 18 without absorbing some simple elements of civility. This is often harder to address than those who know what is appropriate behavior and choose to do otherwise. They are playing a game and expect an opponent. The others are just clueless, but some tough lessons await them.”

“Spare the rod...spoil the children!

These "words of wisdom" transcend all generations as the concept is still just as true today as it was 100 years ago!”

“I don't suggest beating a child or hampering their spirit, but a child has to be tought not to touch what isn't theirs. It's all up to the parents. It all comes down to using psychology on them, because they are sure using it on you.

My parrot is like a 3 yr old. I use psychology on him all the time. A bird is a bird and a kid is a kid, but you can still work with them to not let them rule the roost.”

“Taking Time Out really works. If you are consistent with it it is kinda amazing. You win too because you don't have the kid yelling bloody murder like they do after a spanking.”

“What if "Time Out" don't work. What are the consequences?”

“Discipline is painful for parents. On the girl scout camping trip this weekend, I had to turn the car around and head home due to fighting in the car. After profuse promises to behave, we turned around again. Then, while having lunch there, I had to make my two sit in opposite corners in front of their friends due to fighting. They were good the rest of the weekend. These were painful for me, especially in front of other adults, but they constantly test you and you have to follow through. You can't make threats you won't carry out. And they will tell you they hate you, so sometimes you wonder if hitting them isn't easier. But it really isn't good for society in general, and their self-image and self-worth.”

“I usually take away soda and TV (which I limit normally) as a consequence of misbehaving but these won't be available while camping, so what other suggestions do you all who have children have? My kids don't like desserts much so I don't use that.”

“ok, so my initial post on this thread was sorta nasteee...to counterbalance-
Yesterday, PatchyG and I hiked around the lake at the nearby park. We were headed towards a family on bikes...mom, dad, little johnny, and little johnnyII...so, little johnnyII is just learning how to ride, apparently, cuz he's still got training wheels on. The little bugger is pedalling like a madman - his short, little legs moving at about 90 mph! All the while, his bike is rocking from side to side (thank dawg for those training wheels, LOL!) As we approached, he suddenly saw us and veered into the grass and fell/jumped off the bike. He then proceeds to tell me that "I can't stop very good and I didn't want to hit you." It was so cute to see this freckle-faced little boy's earnest expression as he informed me of his "share the road" philosophy.
(I do hope this is NOT his braking strategy when he learns to drive a CAR!)
;o)

Cute! ok, so there is at least ONE child who's not evil in PA.
*g*

I am mostly tic when I bash kiddies (and men too...welllll). We can't be down on all because of a few or else we are just setting them up to fail.”

“"I would never allow a child to put him/herself in that type of situation no matter how cute it was that he/she loved motorcycles."

how about respect for other's property?”

“Please don't misunderstand me when I talk about correcting children with spanking. I am NOT talking about beating them or hitting them. Spanking should never be done when angry and always on the butt. Contrairy to popular beliefs spanking is NOT child abuse. IMHO not spanking your child is more abusive in the long run.

I do believe that time out is a good way to correct some kids. If it works and you don't have to spank that is great. My brother and sister in-law are foster parents and are not allowed to spank so time out is what they do. Some kids act like you're killing them for making them go to the corner, others it doesn't work. When their adoption of their first son finally went through and they were able to spank him he had no trouble at all with correction and his hearing has gotten miraculiously better.”

“Again, we get the same line from the childless.
I've got a childless sister who has all the answers.

The motorcycle lovin' kid's parents were immigrants and they acted real dumb until little Abdul got burned.
It wasn't too serious, BTW.

In '96 I drove 2,200 miles in 11 days from B-more to New England and back with my three--13, 10, and 5.5--and my brother's 11 year old boy.
We camped in Vt, Maine, and Pa.
While traversing Vt to Me on Rt 2 and for most of the trip I had to put the little one in the front seat of the Bronco.
These knuckleheads COULD NOT go for five minutes with him in the back with out fighting.
Would I take a trip like that again?
You bet your ass I would!

Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny!

Sometimes you just gotta stop the car step off the shoulder and yell into the woods.
"OK kids, I'm better now."
"If you don't knock it off, we're going home and not to the lake."

I believe a parent can be a friend AND an ally AND be in charge.

”

“"Again, we get the same line from the childless."

Like I said, it's common sense, not rocket science. I don't have a motorcycle either, does that mean I don't know how to properly operate them? No, because I have had experience with them just as I have had experience with children. As a fatter of macts I used to work in a school with 1.5-3 year olds that were special needs so I do know at least enough to hold an opinion.

I really don't even have a problem with your undiciplined kids, just keep them away from me. Let yer kids do whatever they like, I don't go in to federal buildings anyhow and I have no kids that go to Culinbine High. 8)”

“I believe a parent can be a friend AND an ally AND be in charge.

Amen to this Tom. I raised my kids by spanking them. I did not know there was another way.

They were my good friends when they were little and they are my good friends now. I really like them as adults.

If you can get the time out method to work for you, everything stays much more sane.”

“What Nigal said!

My parents wouldn't hesitate to let me know when I did something they did not approve of (they even told ALL of my gradeskool teechers they had the OK to spank me if I got out of line). As I was an uncontrollable antagonistic smartass who rarely heeded their words, my punishment was usually a spanking. However, they were also quick to reward me when I did something good. Also, my Mom was always reminding me to say "please", "thank you", No "elbows on the table', "don't lick yer knife", etc. They were always showing me right from wrong, and if they didn't do it...I'd wonder what I'd be like today (probably no consideration for anyone but myself)

Spanking (correcting) children is a form of constructive criticism, and believe me, it instills the ideas in yer head and leaves them there for the future. It sucked then and certainly created friction between my parents and I...but they never corrected me when it wasn't due. They had to do it to "mold" me into a better person than I would've been if they hadn't corrected me so much.

I thank them for it now! I love my parents!”

“I totally agree that you can be a friend to your kids. It's when you refuse to correct their behavior in fear of them getting mad at you. If you try and be the good guy all the time it does the kid no good and you are no friend to them. See Young&Creaky's post for a perfect example of this.”