Smells like children...

“Sometimes, it seems like it would be better to teach some parents how and when to spank their kids, instead of teaching them not to spank.

It seems that some people raise great kids and never spank them, and others raise great kids and spank as a regular part of discipline.

If I remember right, I spanked one of my kids once in his life time and the other one twice.”

“My little one?s fifth birthday is tomorrow. What a joy he is. I?ve got a photo of him on Phil?s page if anyone cares to look. He was almost two then the photo was taken.

Nigal, you have no idea.

Tom, you?re obviously a great dad. We?d all be better off if there were more like you and less like others.”

“When my first was two, she would no t get into her car seat without a fight. I would wrestle with her for 30 minutes, and I used to be very strong. I would spank her, afraid DYFS would spot me and haul me off. Spanking had no impact at all. My second one also would struggle to stay out of the car seat, but one quick smack on the bottom (over her diaper) and she would settle right down. Some books even say that a quick spank is a valid way to train non-verbal youngsters. The moral is that each kid is different and a quick swat to get their attention is a different thing from spanking as punishment. All those of you with no kids, take a live child out to the wood shed for an old fashioned whipping, and see if you don't feel like an unbalanced monster. If you are going to calm down and do a controlled spanking, then you can do a controlled punishment instead. Teachers have all sorts of tricks that don't involve spanking. I've learned from pre-school and grade school teachers almost half my age.
That said, I do believe kids should be taught to behave as early as possible. It just doesn't happen as fast as we all would like.”

“Just relax, and be happy that these children have tought you patience.”

“...an teech 'em how too spel 8)”

“An excellent point Tarpy. I like your new leaf.

Typos don't count as spelling errors.”

“Oh but I do Ken. 8)

I find it strange and ironic how it is the same liberal thinking that runs around in circles wringing their hands saying, "We have to do something about the children! We have to protect the children!" are the same ones who strive to guarantee every single woman the "right" to have thier 7 month old fetus to be half-dragged from it's mother's body, have their skull punctured, then have their brains sucked out,have their skull crushed and then the rest of what's left dragged out and thrown away. But don't ya DARE raise a hand to correct a child if it has been born! It's as silly as concervatives standing against abortion yet also demanding the death penalty.

Maybe you're right Ken, maybe I have no idea. If liberalism is having an idea I hope I never get one.”

“Well, there we go! I rapped up spanking, abortion and the death penalty all in one post! I gotta smash this keyboard and take a frickin' break! I'll see ya'll on some gear threads in a couple days after I decompress a bit. Fighting the evils of liberalism can be sooo exuasting! 8)”

“Thanks ken-
Having children is one of those things you can think you know until you actually have them.
Its total commitment and changes your life....no, really!

Nigal-
You're a wonderful thoughful guy but none of your experience will really prepare you.
Until you've had a weapon pointed at you, you can't really say how you'll behave either.
In 1970 I was in a gas station hold-up at age 17.
The dude said, "don't move!", and I sat with my chair rocked back against the wall holding a cigarette until the damn thing burned my fingers.
Weird analogy......

I've heard that the saying,
"Spare the rod and spoil the child", refers to the "shepard's rod" used to guide sheep.
That's the thing with the hook.
This has been twisted to mean an ass-whuppin' stick.

Nigal-
You tryin' to troll me with that sh!t about my undisciplined boys?
Bastard~@%^>”

“Nigal, if you wish to someday have an idea, you needn't shift your political leanings. You need only to raise some children.

I have never stated my opinion on abortion in this forum, and I resent your statements made above. I repeat: you have no idea.

Nigal, somewhere in that Bible of yours is a lesson in humility. I can't tell you what page it's on, but I know it's there.

I agree that you need a break.”

“Oh well sh!t, I take back all take wonderful thoughtful crap.
You're full alright, Nigal!

Its all about liberalism, huh?
I'm sure you could make a list and using "circular logic" you could blame EVERYTHING that is wrong with the world on liberals!

You need a hug, big boy?”

“Are we having fun yet?”

“someone needs an enema.

blech!”

“LMAO for reals”

“Next time I have a child-rearing question I'll be sure to ask Tom or Ken. They seem to know everything. ;^)”

“Live and learn Joy. You have a joyous journey ahead (no pun originally intended, but I like it!). In few years you will not have all the answers either, but if all goes well you?ll know a little more than you do now.”

“I thought this thread was about loud campgrounds! Wrong again!

So Nigal are you planning any more campouts in public campgrounds? If not then I suggest you make some of the upcoming ECT backpacking adventures. But, we have been know to get a bit noisy ourselves.

See ya on the trail man.”

“The following exerpt is from Still life with Woodpecker by Tom Robbins
"Neoteny" is "remaining young," and it may be ironic that it is so little known, because human evolution has been dominated by it. Humans have evolved to their relatively high state by retaining the immature characteristics of their ancestors. Humans are the most advanced of mammals-although a case could be made for the dolphins-because they seldom grow up. Behavoirial traits such as curiosity about the world, flexibilty of response, and playfulnessare common to practically all young mammals but are usually rapidly lost with the onset of maturity in all but humans. Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it has been sober, responsible,and cautious, but because it has been playful, rebellious, and immature.

Okay now back to me. I think a lot of people could benefit from a little change of perspective. Neither kids or parents are the problem, evolution is and unfortunately we really can't change how we have evolved. My suggestion to everyone is that learn to appreciate the human animal as it is just as we appreciate wild animals. If you saw a bear with cubs, would the cubs discipline ever cross your mind. I think not. I think you quietly observe their interactions hoping to learn something about the species. We can learn a lot from each other if we would only put aside our blame and judgements.”

“have you ever seen a parent racoon show its babies how to raid a food stash?

just because they don't know it's wrong, and then teach it to their children, doesn't make it right.

there are a lot of people, who don't think that they are doing anything wrong, raising children.”

“Oh shoot--I made so many mistakes raising children I can't even start to count 'em. In the end what seemed to count was that we had some idea of how we wanted the children to turn out. One of the reasons I wanted my children to learn how to behave in public was so that they would get along with other people. I have zipped kids right out of reataurants and stores more times than once. It is amazing how quickly they learned to control themselves when they lost what they wanted.”

“The act of a raccoon raiding a food stash isn't wrong. It's trying to survive not play by our rules. It may be bad for you but it's entirely selfish to think that something that is bad for you is inherently wrong.”

“you are partly correct.

they are teaching their children a behavior that is dangerous and will get them killed. humans can be quite the nasty animal, when you disturb their food.”

“Indeed that food for thought. Ha ha”

“Damn...some of ya are brutal!!!

It always irks me when someone goin' car camping shows up at a campground having anywhere from 75-300 campsites, tons of families with children, and then gets pissed off about not having peace and quiet.

Nigal...for years now I've always pretty much dug hearin' your point of views. Now I usually only lurk around TT, but today I gotta step up and say that you and some others here are so very wrong about this stuff.

The poor parenting and all that other crap is definately an issue that merits discussion, but it's not related to the camping problem that you are having.

I've been car camping for 33 years, since I was a kid, and now I regulary bring my own children. I check out in the Woodalls books what each camp has, give 'em a ring and ask about the usual makeup of visitors & the set up. There are sections, or entire campgrounds devoted to a quiet and peaceful existence - go and enjoy.

But for a majority of families who car camp with their children, there is nothing else like it. Just try taking children on vacation to a hotel...they have no freedom...they can't roam the hallways or run around. They're even more restricted than at home - where's the fun in that. In fact, the vacation turns miserable for all because the parents end up yelling every time they roughhouse a bit, or spill a drink, or are too loud after 9pm...so where's the vacation and fun for the parents. But car camping, children get to meet other kids from places they never heard of, chase fireflies, play hide & seek at night, count shooting stars, stand in a circle in a dark field - throw a frisbee up - and see whoever it hits is it. They can go to the playgrounds when they want, visit new friends, and spill soda without ruining someone's rug or couch. Basically they get to take a break from rules....and the parents get a break, if just for a few weekends a year, from constantly enforcing rules. There's always room for that in life...sure children should maintain respect, even during these times of freedom, but don't confuse the excitement of this wonderful experience for all as lack of respect for your desire to have peace and quiet. If ya don't wanna grab a laser lite and run around with 'em, or sing songs around a fire, just choose a campground more carefully,...and maybe judge people a bit more carefully too. Okay?!”

“Laurelhiker, although your analogy might work well with bears, it doesn't necessarily work well with humans. Why is it that if I'm enjoying a nice dinner in an upscale restaurant, and a table full of obnoxious drunks are disturbing my dining experience, I have every right to complain to the management and expect something to be done. By the same token, if I'm in the same restaurant and next to a table full of obnoxious children, I'm not allowed to say anything because they are, after all, only children and I'm suppose to be more understanding. Please explain the difference.”

“Sorry I can't help you, I'm the obnoxious drunk and unless you're buying me a martini I don't want to talk to you!”

“Go figure!

This "discussion" is lively if nothing else.
Keep it up!”

“Okay that was a joke. The point I was originally trying to make is simple. Try not to judge humans/animals, try not to correct their behavoir. Try to change your pespective their is joy and beauty in the drunks and the children and they will only bother you if you are uptight and let them. Everyone has just got to mellow out. Accept that other people can't change but you can”

“Trust me Laurelhiker; I do try to see the beauty in everything, including children, even though it is difficult at times. I would never go car camping and expect to have peace and quiet for that environment is not designed for that. I agree with Wall-Man that car camping is for kids to have fun and explore. My wife's family use to take over a camping ground every year and do just that.

However, I do expect parents to rein in their hellions when the environment dictates that some level of civility should be observed, i.e. nice restaurants, museums, libraries, and movie theatres.”

“And many other places too MadRiver. I agree wholeheartedly, and people often remark at how polite my children are, and how well behaved. And they remain so at the campgrounds...but they ain't quiet. Neither am I, and that's just how I like it! But ya gotta pick the right places to go nutz, and the right places to have quiet.”

“Don't be disappointed if those expectations are not met. It is difficult to see the beauty in children sometimes I will agree. I'm sure a lot of you will agree the greater the difficulty the greater the reward.”

“With the wisdom of Solomon (like the gutless bastard that I am) I will split the difference with Wall-man and Nigal --

Wall is absolutely right. Some of my absolutely best memories are the warm summer nights, up past 'normal' bedtime, playing flashlight tag, catching fireflies, TELLING GHOST STORIES!!, making s'mores, getting a burning ember glowing on the end of a stick and waving it around in the air until (it inevitably happened) someone got burned. They are great great memories. I have started to plant the seeds with my wife that it would be fun stuff to do with our two boys in a couple of years.

BUT. Most campground have quiet hour policies. My parent ALWAYS used those rules as the "supreme authority" if we insisted (resisted) going into the tent at a regular hour. We used to camp with family friends, and their parents were the same. Come the campground rule "quiet time" we were on our way to bed. Period. Any horsing around, and loudness on the way to, or from, the restrooms to wash up for bed was not tolerated either.

My first clear memories of family camping are the big two room brown Camel tent pitched in a field on Prince Edward Island in 1971. I was just six and headed to first grade. We had two bunk cots. One set for the boys, one for the girls, with my parents in the front room on their cots.
I remember the red sand beaches, the thunderstorms, puddles on the floor of the tent, the musty smell, red ants crawling up my pants and biting the beejeezus out of my balls, the driftwood, the blue berries, my brother getting a chip from the wedge my father was using to split wood lodged in his leg (I told that one to MY five yar old this weekend to get him to back off while I was splitting wood . . "when I was your age, your Uncle Peter got a chip of the wedge in his leg when Grandpa Ned . . . "”

“Trust me, laurelhiker, with today's parents my expectations are seldom met. I love spending $100.00+ at a nice restaurant only to listen to a two year old have a meltdown while Biff and Buffy just ignore it.”

“Okay I'm going to have a meltdown. Enough about kids bad manners. I find it in very poor taste to discuss how much money you love to spend. You make me want to cry.”

“bizarre!”

“(climbing on soapbox)

Childrearing should be a careful balance of love, good example, and discipline. Parents don't do their children any favors by allowing them to behave "naturally" at all times. Children are by nature selfish, greedy, and inconsiderate. They need to learn to obey authority and to be courteous to their fellow human beings. They need to learn to cope with boredom, social difficulties, and the unfairness of life in general. I believe that young children should be spanked when they are old enough to know what they are supposed to do and choose open defiance instead. Consistency is also important. I learned the hard way never to give in to a child's arguing - it just teaches them to argue or cry until they get what they want. They have to learn that "no" means "no", and if the parent has made a mistake by saying no they can always apologize for it later. It helps them to learn to admit when they are wrong if they see their parents do it from time to time.

Laurel, you're waaaay out there babe! Obviously you don't have kids yourself. From what you're saying, we should let children run around screaming all hours of the night, throw rocks at other people's cars and/or tents, and otherwise endanger themselves and disturb others in any way they please. There's a big difference between charming over-exuberance and obnoxiousness.

Nigal, I have had a similar experience at a campground. The three or four young children were still running around past midnight, screaming and crying, and the parents didn't seem to know how to make them go to bed. They also couldn't keep their toddler away from the lake, a dangerous situation which made us very uneasy. It was annoying and unnerving at the same time. I have also been guilty of losing control of a group of 9- and 10-year-old kids I was supervising. Complete strangers were coming over and telling them to shut up. The kids weren't being destructive or naughty, they were just too loud. In my defense; it wasn't that late, my only adult helper had left for an hour to take care of a family problem, and we had set up our multiple tents hours before any of our camp "neighbors" arrived. If they didn't want to be around children, they could have selected different campsites.”

“A problem I have with my kids is making threats that I won't keep, Like " keep it up or we won't go on vacation"

On discipline I usually give them two chances. After the third time it's a smack in the back of the head.

Nothing bugs me more than people without children giving advice on how to raise them.
I've seen some child raising books written by people that don't even have children. Now that?s a joke.”

“I don't have children, but I can tell you I know what bad manners are and lack of self-control.

I saw what appeared to be a 11 yr old chewing gum so loudly around the airport, you couldn't help spot him. What do you know, he sits behind me on the plane. I had 3 hrs of listening to his loud chewing. He finally stopped, but then he just reloaded & began again.

I had another leg to the journey, and told my husband, if they sit behind us again, I just can't do it. I'll have to move, I'd rather sit in the back by the bathrooms.

I was at a loss to what or if I should say anything to the parents. It was a matter of manners and not purposefully done bad behavior. I think I would have said something quicker if the kid was going la, la, la, la for the whole trip. It all comes down to sound abuse.”

“Lipstick, why didn't you turn around and politely ask the young man if he would chew his gum quietly? The worst that could come of it would be a continuation of the same behavior but more than likely he would've complied and/or you might have brought the disturbing behavior to his parent's attention. They probably don't even notice his chomping away like a cow.”

“Joy, I just all of a sudden didn't know how to deal with bad manners as opposed to bad behavior. I know lots of grown people who chew like cows, actually it's an insult to cows, people chewing is worse. I've never said anything to adults. The worse for me is listening to it in the movie theatres.

I may have been too sensitive to hurting the kids feelings as he obviously never had his chewing habits brought up to him. I think if anything, I would have liked to mention it to the parents without his hearing it.

I'm not even sure if the kid could have stopped chewing like that after doing it for so many years.”

“laurelhiker........i loved "still life with woodpecker" by tom robbins.......especially one of the last lines..(if not the last line)
"it's never too late to have a happy childhood"....”

“Sorry, calnatv...I may not have children yet, but in having to teach a group of 17 children, I have had to develop skills that parents learn through raising their children. I have had to teach my students to say "please", "thank you", and "excuse me", how to share and take turns, and how to respect the property of others. I should be able to expect their parents to have already taught them these things. But the fact is that I've also had to do it and I don't have to wait until I'm a parent to speak about it.”

“Lips... it certainly would have been worth the effort to gently let the kid know that the sound disturbed you. It might have been an education for the kid and the parents.

When my kids were young, I really tried hard to find a way to let my kids be kids and make sure they behaved in a well mannered considerate way. When I heard a complaint, I always tried to take them seriously and sometimes the feedback helped me. Also, it never hurts the kids to have some outside confirmation that certain things really do bother other people.

It can do wonders to praise parents and kids when the kids are really well behaved. It helped my kids see what thoughtful, considerate behavior meant to other people.”

“I'm sorry laurelhiker, my intent was not to make cry or feel bad. I was merely pointing out that not ALL children are angelic creatures waiting to be adored and worshipped.

PedXing, I usually just grit my teeth and keep quiet when I encounter a poorly behaved child since I assume the parents could care less how their little darling is behaving. However, when I encounter an exceptionally well-behaved child, I always complement the parents and the child.”

“you should'nt be quiet! (that should be my moto!:^P) you may be the only person to teach the child what's polite and considerate. people used to raise kids as a community in that way. it was expected when i was a kid that the neighborhood parents kept an eye on all the kids, not just theirs. we couldn't get away with anything! we were better for it.”

“Although I agree with your sentiment Joy, experience has taught me that if I even slightly question a child's behavior to a parent I will be told by that parent that "he/she is ONLY a child." That catchphrase seems to be in wide use nowadays to excuse any type of behavior no matter how egregious. I too remember, as a youth having to show respect for any adult, not just my Mother. Sadly, those days are gone forever!!”

“oh I hope not!!”

“Mad... There are cases where the parents don't care, or have just completely given up. But there are also times when it really might help to gently call something to their attention.

I also agree with Joy on not being quiet. This doesn't mean you need to get into a fight. The little lessons we can offer (in both the manner and the content of what we say) about consideration and courtesy may help, especially if others offer the same lessons at other times.”

“Sorry vix, It still bugs me”