Should we drill in Aanwr?

“Being hikers, I will assume that the majority of you care about the enviroment. I also suspect that many here may think that drilling for oil in Alaska is going to be a bad thing for the enviroment in that area.

I have lived in Alaska, and worked on the pipeline, and I can tell you this first hand, there is very little danger to the enviroment if they drill for more oil up there. People, there is NOTHING up there. A few wild animals won't be affected. When I was working on the pipeline (surveying) there were animals all over the place, and they were all alive and healthy looking. Because I have 1st hand experience with this issue, I feel I can fairly state this: We need the damned oil, so lets go get it, and in the meantime work on bettering our alternative fuel sources. The reason gas is $2.00 per gallon right now is because of the liberal wacko enviromentalists who don't want anything reasonable done, and the big oil companies who want to profit as much as possible from oil sales. Lets discard those fools and back realistic plans that will help everyone, and the enviroment!”

“Here we go again. You spelled ANWR wrong. I was right you do drill oil.”

“You must be a liberal, the term is Alaskan Arctic National Wildlife Refuge - I am viewing it in USA Today right now!”

“I watched a show the other night about why Oil companies have let their supplies dwindle. The flat out admited that it was more profitable to do business that way. It's all price manipulation, even if we drill ANWR, the price will still rise or remain the same. G dub is trying to help out his cronies.”

“okey dokey smokey da bear, sorry. No I'm not a some liberal, just a sensable person who can see through all this scare tactic crap the Bush admin. is dishin out.”

“We should put price caps on oil and electricity. That way people will be motivated by the low price to use less and producers will be motivated to increase supply by the lower price. Then we don?t need to drill into ANWR. This is governments at its best.”

“Hey ThinAir, I am sure you are a nice guy, and mean well, but once you get in the working world, and own a business, or hold a job, your views may change some. What the oil companies are doing is called Capitalism, and you wouldn't be able have this debate with me over the internet if it wasn't for capitalism. I don't like the fact that the oil barons are cashing in either, and GW really doesn't have the influence in this area that people think. Someone simply needs to invent something that is more efficient, create competition, and then you'll see prices go down, and hopefully less use of oil!”

“The queen of sarcasm returns.”

“Mountain Gal, I am trying to understand your post. I think you must be making an attempt at sarcasm. I don't get it though. What are you trying to say?”

“In the meantime, we do have to drill to decrease foreign control on our country”

“I totally agree with you on that one Hiking Bear! :)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not some ignorant college student, I know how the world works. I even work at a Gas station. LOL”

“I don't agree with your last post though.”

“Why don't we let the Alaskans decide!”

“Well ThinAir, do your part and your first car out of college should be one of those elecric/gas cars. I plan on buying one as my next car. Once the auto compnaies start selling cars like that, and make (here comes the dirty word) PROFIT, they are going to make more of those cars, and invest in making htem better and even more efficient!”

“We can become more independant with new technology that we already have.”

“Hey Dunk, did you know that Alaskans don't pay state taxes on anything, and every man woman and child gets about $2,000 every year because of the oil companies. I wonder how they'll vote?”

“Question: Why does the media, extreme environmentalists and some here talk about oil industry as if it was one company with no competition?

Last I noticed there are many competing businesses in the oil industry. Isn?t competition suppose to be the force that controls prices from rising in a capitalist economy? Maybe I need to take those economic classes over. Or is the real deal that those wanting the government to control energy prices are seeking the destruction of capitalism? These people confuse me.”

“I don't have a problem with "Profit", or capitalism.”

“ThinAir, the point is, we need to BUY this technology and begin to make it mainstream. The bOil companies have us by the ba**s because we depend on oil so much. Therefore they can make that profit, and continue to control price. Decrease demand, that price will always go down, especially with the supply there.”

“Yes I did know that and I've also spent time in Alaska, my brother lived there for a couple years. Alaskans also don't tend to be influenced by political rhetoric and the media like the rest of us.”

“MOOOOHAAAAHHHWAAAA I WILL DESTROY CAPITALISM ME THE BED WETTING LIBERAL WHO HATE GEORGE AND LOVE ME TREE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYHHHHAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA”

“When I lived there Dunk, they seemed to be influenced by Jack Daniels quite a bit, lol. But I was working with some pretty hard core guys who worked HARD!”

“Of course you didn?t get it Ken. It makes no since at all. That is price caps make no since. How do you spell ?shortage?, p r i c e c o n t r o l s.”

“I think that the point is that if we drill in Alaska or not, we will remain under the control of oil companies, yes there are many of them. Why not just ride this one out. They are shootin themselves in the foot.”

“Where have you been mtn gal, I needed a good laugh. Thanks”

“Point is - I'd rather be under the control of American Oil companies that foreign ones.”

“OK Hiking Bear and thinair, where is this one big oil company headquartered and what is its name? Do you two really think of ?big oil? as one entity?”

“Ahhhh American Smerican...Just kiding”

“Does big oil own those black helicopters? You guys are paranoid. Get out more.”

“Hey, I have a good idea. Why don't we just leave the oil in the ground and save it for when the price tops $10 per gallon. Or maybe when forign supplies are so low, or gone, that we absolutely need it. Why drill it now, lets wait. I'm sure there will be a better use for the stuff later. I know they can probably drill with a low impact on the environment, but lets just save our resorces for a while. There might be some future generations that might want a little oil left for their use.”

“OK Mountain Gal. You're saying that you're opposed to price controls. That I can understand. Moreover, I can actually agree.

Now, I'm trying to be nice about this: sometimes your use of scarcasm is confusing. That's all I meant.”

“It takes a few years in the real world for the trash those university professors filled students heads with to wash out and be replaced with the truth. Be patient thinair, you will get your brain back with enough time. I know because I have already be through it.”

“Stop Baiting me”

“well I'v been through it”

“he said it, not me”

“Hiking Bear, you make some good points. I'm sure there are plenty of animals living around the pipeline. Pipelines are pretty harmless, in fact they do a lot less damage than supertankers do. But the question is how are the animals doing around the drilling site?

Actually, that still isn't the real question because the problem with gas prices right now has absolutely nothing to do with crude oil supplies. Read that sentence again. Absolutely nothing.

The supply problems that are driving gas prices sky high have everything to do with bottle necks in the supply chain and in particular in the limited number of refineries that can produce gasoline to California's strict emission standards as well meet the more general mishmash of state and federal regulations.

Most of these problems are short term ones that will be solved within a year or two as new refineries come on line. Bush's so-called "solution" does nothing to deal with the short term problem and allows his oil industry buddies to pocket enormous profits for a couple of years until prices drift downward and Bush takes credit for "fixing" the energy crisis he helped cause just in time to announce his bid for re-election.

By the same token, California's electricity crisis, though completely unconnected to the gasoline crisis, will resolve itself over the next 2 years as a whole slew of new power plants come on-line in California. In the meantime California can swing in the wind for all Bush cares since he knows he'll never get our 50+ electoral votes anyway.

Finally, don't believe the usual claptrap about environmentalists being automatically opposed to power plant construction. Yes, a few kooks will protest at any construction site but you can't judge a whole movement by a few kooks. (Can you, my anti-abortionist friends?) Real environmentalists know that 54% of the electricity in this country comes from coal burning power plants and the more new plants that can be brought on-line the more old polluting coal plants can be shut down.”

“If Bush was just trying to help out his cronies in the oil industry, he would not have placed so much emphasis on the nuclear industry. If Bush restarts the reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel, and finalizes a nuclear waste storage location, he would do the nation a great favor. I'd like for the US to be self sufficient on energy.

My plan is to knock out all the dams, to save the fish, and put 50 new nuclear power plants in Idaho, if not every state. If California doesn't want power plants in their state, fine, but if they can pay the price of the entire life cycle of the power where its generated.

A friend of mine in Sacremento paid $700 last month for electricity for a 2000 square foot house. We paid $65, I think.

I am reassured by Hiking Bear's assessment of the situation in Alaska. I don't know much about the effects of oil drilling up there.”

“Ok guys, I've got to go to work at the gas station now. I'll come back to this one later. SEE ya.”

“Neuclear is good!”

“I am not debating the ANWR issue because I don?t have enough information yet. I said that the last time this was up here. I also don?t think many Americans know much at all about the issue. They largely act on emotion which is partly dependant on what news they watch, listen to or read.

Bush will not resolve this energy problem, the market will. Remember the supply, demand, competition. The best government can do is get out of the way, which is some ways appears to be what Bush wants to do. Will oil companies profit? I hope so, they need the money to build those new refineries and explore. Oh and how many here own oils stocks (including pension plans)? You are the bad ?big oil?.”

“Right on Mtn gal!”

“Gee. I wonder why Bush just axed all funding for the 85 mpg engine?”

“-Hiking Bear.

You're new here? Welcome. You're not a troll are you? (just kidding)

This issue has been debated to death already and I don't think anyone changed his or her position at all. Amazing isn't it? Go to the bottom of the page and do a search (go back at least 1 year) on 'ANWR' or 'gas' you'll see what I mean.

I welcome your perspective, we haven't heard that before. When you want to start a thread, its probably a good idea to do a search to see if its been discussed before and add your post to the bottom of that thread. That way the board stays more coherent. It?s not a rule, do as you please.

I'm about ANWRed out. I do think President Bush's proposal has some merit and serves as a good starting point for a national energy policy. I like that he has included funding to subsidize hybrid electric/gas vehicles. Kinda surprising coming from an oilman, huh?”

“we will allways be dependant on foreign oil no matter how much domestic drilling we do. we do need to increase domestic production to reduce that dependency. if drilling is safe then we could actually drill alot of places, coast of florida, wyoming, montana etc. it is political and therin lies the problem. too many republicans around those places. alaska dont have much politcal clout so brace yourself up there. actually the deep ocean is where we need to go. drilling is fairly environmentally friendly if it is done properly. until the demand lessens, which it aint, we need oil.”

“Hell, yes!! we should drill in ANWR.

My SUV doesn't run on good intentions.

I would rather pay $2.00 per gallon for whiskey than gas.”

“Demand will lessen as the price goes up. Any of you kids ever see a gas line? Fuel effeciency improved real quick after people started to wait in line to pay way more (accounting for inflation) than gas costs now. Gas went down and what have we got? Every damn surburbanite needs a Ford Expedition. I hope gas goes up to ten bucks a gallon. We'll see some demand lessen then.

I agree with Mountain Gal that the market should be let to determine the price.”

“Yes! MY cry for backup has been heard! I'm with you Hiking bear.
As for the drilling impact, it will be much less then the current drill ops. The well pads have shrunk by a factor of 4 whlie recovery rates have increased. This means more oil and less impact. As for damage due to roads, all construction is done in the winter so that the roads can be built on a layer of ice. Once the construction is done, the gravel is stripped and the ice melts. The only trace left behind is the pipeline itself.
The problem with gas is that it is a very inelastic good and there are few cometitors, that means that we have an oligopaly (sp?). The goas companies can set whatever price they want, and we will pay. If one lowers or raises it's price, all the others will too. The only solution is higher supply or more competitors. As for Thinairs comment about waiting until gas is $10 a gallon to drill, that means that we should drill now, because it will take at least a year before Aanwr oil can be put into use. The longer we wait, the more at risk we become.”

“ CHRONO-SYNCLASTIC INFUNDIBULA?
Just imagine that your Daddy is the smartest man who ever lived on Earth, and
he knows everything there is to find out, and he is exactly right about everything, and he can prove he is right about
everything. Now imagine another little child on some nice world a million light years away, and that little child?s Daddy is
the smartest man who ever lived on that nice world so far away. And he is just as smart and just as right as your Daddy is.
Both Daddies are smart, and both Daddies are right.
Only if they ever met each other they would get into a terrible argument, because they wouldn?t agree on anything. Now,
you can say that your Daddy is right and the other little child?s Daddy is wrong, but the Universe is an awfully big place.
There is room enough for an awful lot of people to be right about things and still not agree.
The reason both Daddies can be right and still get into terrible fights is because there are so many different ways of
being right. There are places in the Universe, though, where each Daddy could finally catch on to what the other Daddy was
talking about. These places are where all the different kinds of truths fit together as nicely as the parts in your Daddy?s solar
watch. We call these places chrono-synclastic infundibula.
The Solar System seems to be full of chrono-synclastic infundibula. There is one great big one we are sure of that likes
to stay between Earth and Mars. We know about that one only because an Earth man and his Earth dog ran right into it.
You might think it would be nice to go to a chrono-synclastic infundibulum and see all the different ways to be
absolutely right, but it is a very dangerous thing to do. The poor man and his poor dog are scattered far and wide, not just
through space, but through time, too.
Chrono (kroh-no) means time. Synclastic (sin-classtick) means curved towards the same side in all directions, like the
skin of an orange. Infundibulum (in-fun-dib-u-lum) is what the ancient Romans like Julius Caesar and Nero called a funnel. If
you don?t know what a funnel is, get Mommy to show you one.
--A Child?s Cyclopedia of Wonders and Things to Do, Doctor Cyril Hall

(taken from Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.)”

“that is my favorite vonnegut book, DOOD!!!”

“That was ken?s comment about $10 per gallon, and he said nothing of that ?until we drill? part either.”