Look What The Energy "Crisis" is Causing

“Dunadan, Reagan had his tax cut and his increase in spending, and we and a recession. Now Dubya says we can do it again! I'm sure glad he's not a "tax and spend liberal".
Ps. Econ 101: Don't take a drop in pay if you're in debt.”

“I wonder how many sex changes ae performed every year.
I'll bet more money is spent on cutting the nuts off of farm animals than off of twisted "men".

Reagan was an embarassment to America.”

“Econ 101 ? lag time ? Any economic fiscal action taken by the government take time to show up in the economy. Some times years. There is no instant affect.

Fact ? The great Clinton economy started while George Bush (the older) was still in office. The statistic leave no question about that.

Businesses do take a cut in pay when in debt. It is a risk to build costumer base resulting in increased revenue in the future. The Feds are not going to make much money collecting income taxes from people with decreasing incomes. Reagan was an embarrassment to liberals because he kicked their butt.”

“Wow Naviguesser, that was awesome! What web-site did you cut and paste that from? ;>)”

“Statistical analysis shows that the stock market always does poorly during Republician Administrations. Go figure!”

“Dear Naviguesser The Elder,

I am Not a Republican.

Yes let us take my argument point by point so we can more clearly see the point of my pointed argument. One point being that liberals don?t often use logic. And you provide such a clear example.

I never stated ?it is government regulation that causes all the problems.? I said that govmint regulations caused problems in California with energy production and distribution. I believe in limited government regulation. Look at the mess Houston got itself into without comprehensive planning.

You say, ?government is not in the energy production business.? Gee, it is here, and it?s my understanding (from newspaper reports) that USP&G is not a private business. Then there are the California politicians screaming about how the rest of the country needs to bail them out. If it looks like govmint, sounds like govmint, and smells like govmint?

Yes I mentioned Works Progress Administration. Very sorry not to capitalize. I am a terrible speller and often type so fast that I do not follow the rules of grammar as closely as I might. I do not need research to understand my original point. Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corp were stop-gap measures that led to all sorts of ?entitlement ? programs that, once established, have a way of growing (with liberal help, of course).

Yes I accuse liberals of emotion rhetoric. What I say and what you hear prove my point. I try to make logical points about my tax dollars going to programs that I don?t support. What you say you hear is: blah, blah, blah I?m angry. I have absolutely no control over what you hear, Naviguesser, that?s your personal responsibility.

Liberal philosophy DOES seek to make us slaves. As an employee, I have absolutely no right to any assumptions of how I will be treated by my employer. I am not ?entitled? to anything. I make personal choices. If my research indicates that a company will provide what I need, then I will consider working there. The company owes me nothing. When I provide services, I expect to be compensated according to my standards. If I am not compensated monetarily, emotionally, or spiritually, then I find another organization to work for. My tax dollars represent the services I provide. When I am forced to pay for things for which I receive no compensation, that is slavery. Shall I explain it another way?

There are many programs that I do not wish to support. You may certainly choose to opt out of supporting the military. Figure out how much of you tax dollars go to support the military, then withhold that amount from the IRS. See where you end up. You are a slave my friend. The more programs that you pay for, that you don?t agree with, the more you are subject to servitude. If I were you, I?d vote for the establishment of local militias. Unless you believe, like I, that a centralized military is the better way to protect your interests. I would guess that you don?t care about protecting Bill Gate?s interests. There are programs that are clearly for ?the common good?, defense, transportation infrastructure, and education being some of those. I wish to contribute to those programs. Your logic is fallacious.

I didn?t say that ALL human accomplishment is driven by individualism and not collectivism (remember, you?ve still got Ben & Jerry?s to be proud of). I said ?the vast majority? of human accomplishment is driven by individualism. Henry the Navigator was a collective government program? Cool name for a program. You say, ?the government financed Columbus? You mean the Queen of Spain? Hardly a collective organization. The government financed Lewis and Clark, in order to map the continent, so that the government could then take it from the Native Americans. The Transcontinental Railroad was a great accomplishment. Again, we get into ?the common good?. Transportation, and access to land, was in the interest of ?the common good?, unless you were Native American. And how would government otherwise expect to collect property taxes unless it?s citizens had access to the land? The Native Americans sure didn?t want to pay any taxes. Wars are an accomplishment? Where is that coming from my smiling friend? The space program? Remember Werner Von Braun? Wouldn?t have been much of a program without him. I still maintain that the vast majority of human accomplishment is driven by individualism. You haven?t quite convinced me otherwise. But let me know if you hear of any more Ben & Jerry?s type start-ups.

I understand that the vast majority of liberal ideas are well intentioned. And you know what they say about the road to Hell. I disagree with liberal implementation of those good intentions. I still stand by my arguments that it is slavery to force someone to pay programs that provide no compensation. That liberals lump a category of people they call ?the rich? into one pot and try to make them feel guilty. And that liberals often abdicate personal responsibility for their actions under such guises as, "But we meant well.?

I would like to oblige you on what appear to be your snide remarks ?please read some history?, and ?your homework assignment is to write a report on noblesse oblige?, but I am already behind in my reading. I have an extensive library and have been a member of The History Book Club for a few years now. If you are not already a member, I can sign you up and maybe get a free book out of the deal. May I also recommend Foreign Affairs magazine? Foreign Affairs is a quarterly publication that seems to be fairly unbiased in its general slant. I have no idea whether you are familiar with the HBC or FA. I wouldn?t want to make the mistake of assuming that you were not well informed or an intelligent individual.

Death to liberal philosophy, greed, selfishness, and shortsightedness!

Nanny-nanny-boo-boo to you!”

“Sorry about the USP&G folks. I have enough trouble remembering my phone number let alone the initials for all those stupid govmint energy production companies.”

“Here?s a great government program. Take a group of people. Provide them with their food, clothing, shelter and medical care. Teach them a new way to make a living.

The Test
This was done:
a) because of compassion for the people
b) to control the people

In the case of the Native Americans the answer is b)to control the people. Far left political liberal philosophy today is same today. To control the people its practitioners want us to be dependant on the government. They want us to see the government as the cure to every ill. Many of the ills that they seek to have the government cure are nothing more than the consequences of poor choices made by individuals. Individual control and responsibility is the antithesis of far left political liberal philosophy. Give me liberty.”

“Arclite....I too, belong to HBC, and I can assure you that one of the first things FDR did as president was to bail out the big business owners. They love government programs that are aimed at corporate welfare.
Was income tax started under a Republican or a Democrat?”

“HEY EVERYBODY! READ ARCLITE'S POST OF 5/22 THE VERY 1st SENTENCE. THEN READ HIS POST OF 5/24 THE 3rd PARAGRAPH!
I KNEW WE COULDN'T TRUST THE LIEING CONSERVITIVE FASCIST DOG!!!
THEY ALL LIE AND CHEAT AND LIE AND STEAL AND...”

“How's that for emotion and rhetoric? 8^)
Anyway I get to babysit my granddaughter tonight. So later.”

“I don't care about the "Big Two" political parties, Dunadan. Nor do I wish to get into discussions that revolve around which of those parties wears the white hat and which wears the black hat. I'm what some folks would call "socially liberal." I've sparked enough controversy by labeling all liberal thought as evil. I don't really believe that. But tell me, have you thought about the specific points that I've mentioned? It's unthinking allegiance to party doctrine that causes many problems for the followers of organizations. No one party has all the answers. As the man said, "think for yourself."

Nav-Baby, your post isn't worth responding to, you old curmudgeon. Have fun indoctrinating your granddaughter.”

“nav has a cool name, but what a freak. geez.”

“SICK 'EM, BOY!!!!

”

“Dang, arclite...very impressive.
I guess the results from your IQ test came back negative, eh? hehehe! Just pokin'.

I do think it's funny you accuse Naviguesser of emotional rhetoric when your post is (seemingly) just as impassioned! Okay, maybe it's not, but 12 LONG paragraphs is not exactly dispassionate!

You kids play nice, now.”

“Anyone who is not liberal in their youth does not have a heart.

Anyone who is not conservative in their old age does not have a head.

Winston Churchill.”

“The liberal / conservative philosophical split is based on ones belief in a some entitlement to success, comfort and security, versus the responsibility to make it on your own. I doubt if anyone wants to abolish social security, medicade, or unemployment comp, but beyond the basic safety net stuff, conservatives think people should take responsibility for thier own success.

The guy who has 6 kids and works at McDonalds. Those 6 kids didn't happen overnight. What has he been doing for the past 20 years? Has he ever heard of birth control? Why can't he get a better job?

I have been poor, and see poverty as a phase we all go through, and from which it is possible to move forward. I worked my way through college, did manual labor, worked in dead end jobs, and kept getting more education, and getting out of dead end jobs into better ones. Now I make a good living, and I know it can be done. Taking on the helpless victim role doesn't get one to a level of comfort, nor develop the skills to keep generating higher income. It is rather inspiring when a crowd of poor immigrants come into this country, and the next generation of them is running businesses, going to college, and moving up. At the same time, another group is still mired in poverty. The difference in internal to the people, not imposed from without, by the "system". The system works.

There is a great book out, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad", about a kid who had a college degree and taught at Universities, and a "semi" dad who was a smart business owner who knew how to run a business. The college educated dad was always broke and blamed inadequate wages, and uneducated dad was rich, then broke, then rich again, but relied on his own resources to make money. Its a good read.”

“I actually had my IQ tested at an institute in NYC, kleetn. You don't want to know. If I'm overqualified for mensa, how come I can't remember where I put my keys and wallet the night before? Doh!

Yeah, I am one passionate S.O.B. (you ought to know sweetie). There is a difference between passion and emotional rhetoric. Want one excellent example of emotional rhetoric? Start talking badly about conservative thought and see who starts coming back with something like, "Oh yeah? well those Democrats really suck!" You can practically hear their minds pucker and close.

Argue passionately but logically. Dang, now I just need to live up to that ideal. Socrates was my hero. And if I was as old as The-Naviguesser, I could have met the dude.”

“I'm a submensa.

Never been tested. If I do become tested, I'm going to tattoo the magic number on my forehead where it belongs.”

“I got mine tattooed on my a$$, where it belongs.”

“I do hope everone saw the humor in the bombastic exaggeration of my last post. If not please reread it in a ridiculously comical light. 8^)

Socrates? I went to school with a guy my that name. I wonder if he's the same one you're talking about.”

“That was from The-Naviguesser not Snakelegs! How the___ did that happen?”

“Hey Arc, I'm not a democrat by any stretch of the imagination. I have voted Rep., Dem., Green, Libertarian, just for your info.
I really wanted to see a race between McCain and Bradley, as they represented the liberal/conservative arguments and weren't bending over backwards to look "middle".
As far as emotional rhetoric goes, using terminology such as "slave" to describe liberal philosophy is over the line, IMHO. Even though I lean towards the left, I trust that most conservatives, (there are deviates on both sides), genuinely want this to be a great country. If I didn't believe this, I could not sleep at night. I can assure you that most liberals desire the best for everyone. (I am referring to the common "man on the street" types.
That is why it is so difficult to listen to someone, (ala Limbaugh), who seems to only want to speak from "on high". Both Liberal and Conservative thought has helped to shape this country for the better. Both have made some big mistakes, also.
Peace.”

“Besides, unless it changes, big money is going to win the elections, not political phisosophy. W is my case in point.”

“Well said Dunadan!”

“so, snakelegs and the naviguesser are the same person. i don't get it.”

“so, rad and louge are the same person. i don't get it.”

“so, rad and lounge are the same person. i don't get it.”

“arclite, after rereading my POST I see how most people would have misinterpreted my intention. If you we're, justifiably, one of them. I apologize.
As if I needed yet another example of the limitations of the written word. I do ask you to forgive my oafish jest.”

“yeah, but i changed my name. he just has two at the same time. and i always thought that snakelegs was someone else. hmm.”

“hmm.”

“hmm.”

“They are 2 different people. The work me and the home me. Not not homey!”

“I have multiple personalities also.”

“me too.”

“me too.”

“y'all are ALL on crack, yo!”

“no, this is the first name I had about two years ago.”

“Oh no! Rad crashed the party and put a lampshade on his head. Bad Lizard, bad, bad lizard.

Nav, you've been nothing but cool. Expression is difficult by written word alone but I really get the impression that you've been having fun discussing issues and pulling my leg.

Good for you Dunadan. I don't understand folks who blindly vote for one party. I have no doubt that most people mean well. What I find unconsionable, in most political discussion, is the name calling as opposed to issue debates.

We all make mistakes but it helps us to do self-examination to improve ourselves. Most folks say they do that sort of thing like most people think (in polls) that they are above average drivers. But we often don't do more than scratch the surface.

Societal problems are so very complex. We owe it to ourselves to be well informed, empathic towards other positions, and really take a long hard look at why we believe as we do. It's not the intentions of many folks that I question, it's the amount of thought they give to the consequences of their actions.

I am economically conservative. I don't beleive that I crossed a line dunadan. Free speech goes where it may. When someone's comments sting, chances are there is some truth to them for the stingee. That's when it's important to open the mind and not shut the door to protect ourselves. I truely believe that many liberals have a Robin Hood mentality that makes them feel good about stealing from others to support their well intentioned programs. I beleive that many liberals have a guilty conscience and try to foist that on others. Why? I'm clueless (probably doesn't surprise some folks). I beleive strongly that people justify their actions with good intent. That they then blindly make decisions based on good intentions without understanding the consequences of those actions. And that I find to be truly evil.”

“I've said it before and I'll say it again...It's THEM! It's always THEM!”

“The essense of dehumanization. It's easier to treat people with disrespect if they're not part of your "group."”

“Tom Dashle (n.) - (1) A complete moron who uses his power to deceive the very people who were dumb enough to vote for him by uttering phrases that contain no logic or facts. (2) Democrat, Democratic (3) A drink the union boys named after the politician while drinking during their 4 hour "lunch" break.

"Hey Bo, let's go back to work, just kidding, haha, let me buy you another Tom Dashle."”

“Put away the bottle, DB, it's becoming painfully obvious you've had enough. *hic!*”

“How can good intentions be truly evil? Misguided maybe, but evil?
Semantics, yes. But....”

“arclite, I?ve always said, ?If you can?t have fun doing what you?re doing, better find something else to do.? So, yes I?m having fun. Especially as you seem to have either got my joke, or accepted my apology.
I find it interesting from posts here and on other threads how much we agree.
But, back to this thread, and to correct one of my misstatements.
Edison, Pacific Gas & Elect., and San Diego Gas & Elect. are private companies, publicly traded, with shareholders and everything.
We here in California had power.
Power consumption has decreased over last year in Calif.
The Edison Co. made enough money to change the name of Anaheim Stadium to Edison Field (why does a monopoly need to advertise?).
Then the utilities were deregulated (a bad deregulation plan).
Part of the plan was a guaranteed bottom sales price.
One of the first things they did after deregulation was to sell off the power generating plants (how can you sell power if you don?t make power?).
Edison was making enough money to forward millions to their parent company.
The companies that bought the generating plants (and others) said ?Guess what our price is today!?
The guaranteed bottom sales price quickly became a ceiling and none of the millions that went to the parent came back.
The State of Calif. is buying power and selling it to the utilities because their credit is so bad now (the utilities haven?t paid the small producers (windmills, solar, and gas) because they need operating capital, putting some of them out of business).
The politicians are crying to Washington because most of the generators are out of state and out of reach. Meanwhile, the Department of Water & Power, owned by the City of Los Angeles, has plenty of power and has not raised prices. (Ok, I was mistaken when I said governments are not in the power business).
We have gotten some power from the Bonnieville Power Administration on the Columbia River, a T.V.A. type government project, who has the cheapest power in the country.
The above are facts, with some opinion, but no emotion, and the conclusion I come to is the Government is wearing the white hat, the Capitalist (the out of state generators) are wearing the black hats, and the utilities are wearing the Dunce Caps.”

“I heard that Mexico is moving full speed ahead to open a power plant just South of the California Border. Problem solved. The environmentalists maintain the strict regulation in the United States and the Mexican government can sell cheap power at a huge profit, because they don't have to abide by US environmental laws.

The US companies who supply the technology and equipment to Mexico make money too.

Is this screwed up or what?”

“As long as they don't pollute the Tiajuna River, which flows into the U.S. 8^)
Actually it does sound like a good idea with some twiking of the enviromental rules. I think some of those rules should / would be good for Mexicans too.”

“Hey, Arc, I still think you went over the line. Using the term "slavery" is way out of line. That terminology could be just as well used against conservatives/capitalists, but would that be useful to further anyone's point in this debate? I think some people, (like you), use inflammatory language and then back off and accuse others of arguing only emotions. Takes one to know one?”