“Mtn Gal,
I could not agree more with your post of 4:43 yesterday. You voiced it succinctly. Right up there with hike you own hike! We finally agreed on something. (what are you wearing???)”
“My guess is that we do not agree. I probably didn?t make it clear. I was trying to represent the position of ?the politically correct powers? whoever they are. Liberals I think. The point was that if you accept as true that dribble about the new definition of a family you should also support peoples right to polygamy.
I hold that the best family is one women, one man and the kids they produce. Best for the kids and best for society. This isn?t intolerance, I?m not asking for any action against those that believe different. I was raised in a one parent household. One parent homes can be OK but is not the best. One parent may even be better than two if one is evil.”
“I'd trust what Rad learned from his parents who were in the church a great deal more than I'd trust church members who were trying to sell me on the religion.”
“"The point was that if you accept as true that dribble about the new definition of a family you should also support peoples right to polygamy." I'm not entirely sure what specific dribble you're referring to, but it sounds like a statement that I can support.
Since I am the second most flaming liberal here (after Mr. Terrific of course) that means, Mountain Gal, that you agree with one of us. That means that you are on your way to becoming one of us. We are recruiting you.”
“most mormons are very nice people, with strong family values.
the hardest part of an argument like this is that both sides are right. there are many good, and many bad, aspects to it.
the point that drove my parents away was not something that was just a secret belief or a personal aspect of the religion. it was hatred towards a group of people. a hatred that was not based on beliefs, political leanings or culture, but solely on the tone of their flesh.
we were still good friends with the other mormon family in our neighborhood, but my parents would not discuss religion with them.”
“Ken, if I convert when do I get my first check from the government and when do I get sign away my freedom? I can?t wait to be relieved from this burden of making decision. It will be great to have an official in Washington doing it for me.
Yes Ped, always go to a groups enemies for valid information. That is way I get al my information about the Democrats from the Republican Party.”
“I don?t get a check from the government although that nice fellow in Utah must get a whopper with 29 kids and four more on the way.
I remember signing up for the draft and thinking that it was like signing away my freedom. They don?t make gals so that yet, but you can enlist. Not exactly the same thing, but close.
You already have at least three representatives in Washington: two senators, and one member of the House of Representatives. Plus Dubya.
“Just curious Rad, Did you at any time embrace the mormon religion, or were you dragged there week after boring week, ruining every good weekend? I suspect that you, like me were dragged to church and that makes it pretty hard to be objective. Just an observation. I really have no opinion about the discussion of religious values here. I don't know enough of the Mormons, just heresay. BTW, I was raised Lutheran and now consider myself more of a Baptist persuasion.”
“no. actually, the youth group was fun and i liked the people that we went to church with.
i still liked them, after we left. i didn't understand until it was explained to me, later.
after that, my parents did not force one single bit of religion on me. even now, they do not talk about it much. they say that i need to find these things on my own, with help from no one.”
“I liken the More-mon polygamy to that propagation of the "species" which the Nazis were encouraging in the '30s.
They are tryin to populate their "little" kingdom at an accelerated rate.
Pinky---Duh, what are we going to do tonight, Brain?
The Brain---Why, the same thing we try to do EVERY night, Pinky.....take over the world!!!
They're dinky, they're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain....
Those two remind me of George W and Dick Cheney(Smoker).
We have a Professor here at my university named John Brain.
I shichew not!”
“Aw, shazbott, You mean I thought we were in agreement and she was being sarcastic? Nah, I'd rather believe Ken and his theory that she's "turnin'" into a flaming liberal. Come on over, Gal.”
“There was a Professor P. Wacker when I was at Rutgers. He always used the P. and not his full name - PETER O. WACKER! I couldn't make this one up. If he murdered his parents, I'm sure no jury in the land would convict him.
I applaud your parents for leaving the Mormons over their racial intolerance.
I hate to knock anyone's religion, but these are taken from their own writings:
2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them,.
Brigham Young observed, "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind."?Journal of Discourses, v.7, p.290.
He also noted, with magisterial finality: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain [the black race], the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."?ibid., v.10, p.110.
Young?s successor, John Taylor declared that, "after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham?s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have representation on the earth..."?ibid., v.22, p. 30.
Late LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie in his MORMON DOCTRINE has written: "Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the Fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were cursed with what we call Negroid racial characteristics." p.616.
As if to cap off this dreary little litany of intolerance, we have this official letter from the First Presidency of the Church from July 17, 1947: "From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by the church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the gospel."?quoted in MORMONISM AND THE NEGRO, pp. 46-47 by Stewart and Berrett.
Since 1978 they have changed the wording of the Book of Mormon from "white and delightsome" to "pure and delightsome"”
“Violin, here's a similar one: I went to school with a guy named PETER HARDER. He started going by Pete, and in the senior yearbook he was listed as "Pete D. M. Harder"...but still...
Did he catch a load of sh!t in high school? What were his parents thinking?”
“I happen to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I take offense at many of your comments. Before you label a group of people "intolerant", or "hateful", please regard very carefully what you say. I hate to think that anyone that I associate myself with religiously would offend anyone, or preach hatred. Although I can't speak for the actions of everyone who belongs to the church I belong to, I know for a fact that our doctrines don't advocate or tolerate any type of bigotry or hatred. My 2 cents worth.”
“Cool! We have a true believer amongst us. Hobbit baby, inquiring minds want to know?
Do you believe in baptism for the dead?
Do you believe that God used to be a man on another planet?
Do you believe that God had a father?
Do you believe that there are three levels of heaven?
Do you believe that God resides near a star named Kolob?
Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?
Do you wear the secret underwear?
Does the underwear really have religious symbols sewn into the underwear?
Does the underwear really have nipple protectors?
Is there really a secret handshake?
Do you know the secret handshake?
“Ken, if you're really interested in knowing about my religion, I can arrange for someone to teach you. If you are merely curious, I'm not the one to satisfy your curiousity.”
“Lol Mr.Kleetn. I worked with a dude named Harry Keister...no chit! I gradgeeated hi-skool with his brother Robby. You didn't f*@# with either of them!”
“I must say that the beliefs Ken lists don't bother me at all. I find them unbelievable, but I find something in most any religion that is unbelievable to me.
Many groups and traditions are stained by forms of racism and bigotry, and what is needed here is honesty. Any group can be taken to task for failure here, its always fair game.”
“What is really telling though is Mtn. Gals comment on going to a groups enemies for information... as if Rad was some kind of enemy of Mormonism.... as if he was motivated to attack, discredit and undermine Mormons for some other reason than the one he states.
That has made this an educational thread for me, and reinforced a good many of my intuitions.”
“I thought that the reason polygamy started in the Mormon Church had to do with how many men were killed in the Civil War. Too many women and not enough husbands.
I too have Mormon ancestors. What Arizonan doesn't. My Great Great Grandmother on my Mom's side was a mail order bride from Germany. She was the fifth wife of a Mesa Mormon.
My Great Grandmother changed religions when her husband left her with four small children and she married a Catholic. Her daughter--my grandmother was very Mormon in her ways even though she would have nothing to do with them and was a devout catholic.
Me--just read the TT Religion thread. Smiles, Mary”
“I lived in Utah for two years. Liked the people-loathed the religion. I studied the LDS faith in detail and found it to be very different from traditional christian theology. To be fair,many faiths have changed certain tenents of their faiths,creeds etc. when it suited their purpose. Myself,I am a high priest in the church of rock and roll!”
“Forgive me Sandy, for I have sinned. I came across and old Milli Vanilli tape yesterday, and instead of destroying it, I listened to it. What is my penance?”
“Hiking Bear-
Thou shalt be flogged by the Queen of Rock 'n Roll hisself.....Little Richard!
Let's hope that the change in Mormon doctrine is more than window dressing.....or merely a change to clean underwear.
There are folks who have truly softened their hearts.
George Wallace is a fine example.
He went from standing in the school house door with all his racial venom to being a real brother to black people.
Wallace became an admirable man who displayed great kindness inspite of incredible physical suffering.”
“Violin - Interesting. I call some one to ask about the quotes you posted. After I told him about the first one I had to wait for him to stop laughing. That Book of Mormon quote was not in reference to persons of African heritage. It was referring to, as Mormons believe, the ancestors of the Indians of north and south America. This is a group that has never been restricted in any way from the Mormon priesthood or anything else. In Mormon theology these people are promised special blessings. Given how badly out of contexts the Book of Mormon reference was used I find very little credibility in the rest of what you posted. I am well aware that it is possible to quote anyone and make them sound terrible. All you have to do is be selective and ignore the historical setting and parts that don?t support your desired outcome. I will check it out but your source is dubious for the context or lack of it.
Ken ? You haven?t got a clue. ?Nipple protectors?.? Protect from what, you?
Me ? I am tired of this Mormon slamming even if I brought up the subject. I am going to check some other subjects. Maybe one on backpacking.”
“It was certainly never my intention to insult anyone's religious beliefs.
I do feel a moral obligation to confront racism in any form and feel that when it becomes sanctioned as 'the will of God' it is particularly dangerous. History teaches us this lesson well and no religious group has clean hands to my knowledge.
As a person who's ancestry includes Native American, I find little comfort in hearing that the Book of Mormon considers any dark skin to be a sign of 'sore cursing' be it African or otherwise.
If my quotations were out of context or incorrect, please accept my retraction and sincere apology. That The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has moved beyond this wrong-minded thinking is a good thing.
“Mountain Gal, I read on an ?expose? type website that the garment, as it?s properly called, has triangular pieces of cloth sewn on that area. They were irreverently referred to as nipple protectors. The material was presented in a way such that I was unsure if they were making fun of a real aspect of the garment, or simply making something up to make fun of. I admit that I find the idea amusing, and I was wondering if there really are triangular pieces of cloth sewn there. Seriously.”
