Down vs Synthetic

“LyndyS, under certain conditions of high humidity the coated nylon wall of the inner tent is likely to be moist from condensation and if your bag contacts the wall it is likely to get a little damp there. Another source of moisture is from using a 3/4 length pad and the bag will pick up body moisture underneath the foot section when it contacts the cold tent floor. To minimize this keep some form of insulation underneath the entire bag. Since there is no tent that doesn't experience condensation under the right conditions, you need to use little tricks to deal with it when it occurs. Wipe it up as necessary, keep wet gear out of the tent and give damp air every chance to escape. If you have a a waterproof breathable suit place it between the tent wall and your bag. Also use a tent large enough so condensation won't be as bothersome. Check Hilleberg tents website for an excellent discussion about condensation in tents. Good luck.”

“Down bag user here. Mine's a (comparatively) inexpensive one...REI Down Time 0 degree. I use it year 'round (open it up when too warm, cinch it down to keep warmth in).

I've used it three years now, including SAR training and missions where we tend to rig hasty tarp shelters in the driving rain (I'm in the northwest). Only been wet once from a very poor setup.

Everyone is paranoid about wet down. Here are a couple of steps to make sure you don't have to worry about that.

1) pack your sleeping bag in a plastic sack inside your stuff bag

2) Pick a good site to set your tent or rig your shelter...avoid hollows or areas where water will pool. If you're doing a tarp shelter, have the windward side closed off

3) Make sure your your sleeping bag is entirely under the shelter or not touching the sides of the tent.”

“LyndyS, If you have a rain fly touching the walls of the tent won't cause it to leak. Some cheaper tents don't have full flies and they can leak if the lower wall of the tent is intended to be water proof.”

“Anybody here who had bad experience with a downbag getting wet on a backpacking trip?

Who had to deal with a realy wet sleeping bag during a camping trip? Are downs realy as bad as their reputation?

Apart from such incidents like falling into a river or a river flooding the tent, is there anything that can be done to keep a down bag dry and happy, even when backpacking/camping for days in rain? Or is it just inevitable that the bag well get wet/moist over the days, becaus of sweat and condensation?”

“"Anybody here who had bad experience with a downbag getting wet on a backpacking trip?"

On my first trip in 1973 I was surprised to find that condensation had pooled in my single-wall tent.
My duck down bag got wet and after drying in the sun I was on my way.

Since then the only other time I had a wet bag was after sleeping under a tarp wrapped like a burrito where the condensation got me again.
I knew better but didn't care because I was bugging out the next day.
The wet bag was heavy, which was a pain, but I didn't die.

Down is my preference and I live in the humid East.”

“What's the postition of the NOLs folks on this matter?”

“Your own feeling are more important than that of all the experts opinion. Buy a new bag every two years and carry another pound ,if you doubt down.”

“Yes, I am wondering how a down bag behaves in humid climate or if there is rain for a couple of days and no chance to dry it in the sun the next morning. Even if it didn't realy got wet through condensation or leakage.

On the NOLS equipment list they recommend a synthetic bag. I don't think that means down bags are ruled unsuitable though.”

“I used a Marmot Helium on my AT hike in '05. The morning condensation did get the surface wet, but never seemed to bother the down. Rather than keep it in a compression sack, I placed it loosely in a trash bag with the opening closed tightly as possible and then folded into itself several times. This was very effective in keeping the bag dry in every instance, including a chest high ford of the Pleasant River in Maine. I always carried spare trash bags and changed them every 3-4 days. I did the same with my tarptent because it all saves pack space.”

“Experts??
In 34 years of backpacking I have managed to keep my down bags dry in rainy and humid weather just fine......except for those two times.

I bought a Sierra Designs Polarguard bag in '82, a 4.5 pound +5 F bag thinking I was moving into the modern world.
A 3.5 pound 0 degree(-18 C) down bag will compress to half the size of that synthetic.

Synthetic bags have cold spots. The insulation doesn't fill the space like down will.
The last two times I used that synthetic bag was in temperatures between +10 and +20 F(-12 & -7 C[??]) and the cold spots convinced me that to never use it again.

During a night's sleep one's body heat will drive at least some moisture from the bag as long as you can keep rain and condensation away.”

“"On the NOLS equipment list they recommend a synthetic bag. I don't think that means down bags are ruled unsuitable though."

I believe that is because they assume they are informing the inexperienced to be on the "safe side".

Listen to the "old one"..........Das Foot.”

“Been in driving rain in my ..AHEM.."Henry Shires TARP TENT" and got a bit damp but never noticed a problem.

I use synthetic if it looks like ALOT Of rain just becuase ...but normally my bag is in a tarp type bivy so there is protection.


The bad part about DOWN is if it GETS SOAKED. TAKES for freaking ever to dry. But alot of the outer shells today are really water resistant.”

“Real hikers don't let their down bags get soaked.”

“No, the bad thing about down is that you have to sell one of your children to buy a good bag.”

“The Wind River Range is dry dry dry.
Water is mostly from snow melt.”

“The inexpensive down bags work just fine if ya don't wrassle hawgs in 'em, HyWay.

What the hell are you shouting about, XLAX!!!”

“i have both types of bags. i use the synthetic on trips where i know it will be really wet, like kayaking trips or trips where i know it will rain. that said, the only time i have had a problem with down getting wet was from condensation. when you sleep in a down bag the water that evaporates from your body gets trapped in the down. over time the down loses it's loft. so it needs to be aired out once in a while. well, on a really REALLY cold night i crawled into my bivy and zipped myself in, leaving a little vent hole... just to warm it up inside. well, i was so zonked i fell asleep. when i woke up it was like a sauna in the bivy (i was breathing into it and the vent was too small). my bag lost a lot of loft and i was chilly but the bag aired out the next day in the sun and all was well.

from an insulation perspective modern synthetic can't hold a candle to down, in my opinion. the best synthetic is like a poor quality down. when you get to the high fill down you are really talking quality insulation. the thing to remember is that even if synthetic keeps some of it's insulating properties when wet, it doesn't keep THAT much of it's insulation properties and so it's more the drying time that is relevant in many ways.

re synthetic bags and cold spots. down bags have these too. it's a product of quilting, for the most part. Where the insulation is sewn there is a pinched section of the insulation that gets cold. down bags address this very well with "box baffled" designes and synthetic bags are "shingled" meaning the insulation is sewn in place in overlapping layers like shingles on a roof. also, some manufacturers are making synthetic bags with no stitching by welding the fabric in place (i think sierra designs has a bag like this). i have a "marmot pounder plus" that is shingled. it doens't have any cold spots however i think it's temprature rating is a bit overstated.”

“Hyway - that's why people should have large families.”

“any one know those little z rests? the little organe things that have the same kind of design as the things eggs come in? Well...well i sleep on this thing the little holes have a tincy bit of water pooling in them from condensation...

My synthetic bag takes all this in stride...it seems to keep me warm even when i burrow down in it and breath into it as well...

Would all of that be enough to make a down bag damp and or loose some of its loft?

The only thing I hate about my synthetic bag is the fact that it takes up so much darn room in my pack!”

“I used to use synthetic but now I use nothing but down. If you buy the right bag they make them almost waterproof, in fact at a store demo the western mountaineering rep poured water on one of the WM bags and it just pooled there, never went through. Nevertheless, I keep mine in a waterproof bag and I've never had any problems.”

“Get Down!”

“Jungle boogie?

Pack your down bag correctly and be mindful of conditions and there will be no problems. (barring strange circumstance)

Down all the way.
last edited: 8/30/07 6:53:02 AM”

“Jungle boogie............exactly!!

Down in front!”

“Thanks, all that info realy helps. I have a down bag. I probably get a waterproof bag for it, just to be on the save side.

The last couple of days we had nothing but rain. I wondered if my trip in the Wind River Range might end up just like my last trip, when I got soaked like never befor in my life. Hell, that wasn't rain anymore, it was more like every second buckets of ice water were poured out on us. That was in Scotland.
I am glad to hear the Wind River Range tend to by dry.”

“a turkey roasting bag works great as a pack liner for a down sleeping bag. they are cheap and easy to replace if damanged. roll it up like a dry bag.”

“Another vote for down. the nylon shells are usually treated with DWR and this is surprisingly resiliant. The area on my bag that usually gets wet is near the footbox where I rub against the tent while I sleep and condensation rubs off on the bag. It has never been an issue and, provided it is not damp in the morning, can dry before I hit the trail. If it's damp in the morning but nice when we break for lunch, I'll pull it outta my pack and give it some sun just for good measure. In addition to a pack cover when there is the potential for rain, I wrap my sleeping bag in a trashbag, just in case one of those river crossings goes awry.

I'd also add I have used synth and have positive experiences with them for the most part. For me, it comes down (heh) to a weight, size, comfort matter. I have never found a synth bag the lays over your body like down.
last edited: 8/30/07 7:51:32 AM”

“When we were in Glacier a couple weeks ago we went on a trail that didn't have much water. ChinMusic packed a 4L bottle of water to the back of his pack and it leaked into his pack making everything wet. He had a down sleeping bag wrapped in nothing more than an everyday kitchen trashbag and his sleeping bag was perfectly dry. You don't have to go to extremes or spend a ton to keep them dry, just a plain ol garbage bag will work.”

“"Hell, that wasn't rain anymore, it was more like every second buckets of ice water were poured out on us. That was in Scotland."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwHcrqrROtE”

“I use a tashbag to keep the down dry. Some people use the heavier trash compactor bags.

I've had a syn bag get wet, but it was full on summer in North Carolina and wasn't that big of a deal. In the winter, I'm super careful to keep the down dry - it's not terribly hard to do, just have to think abou it.”

“You attitude about rain determines your use of down bags, vests, jackets, etc.

If you have gear that will allow you to sleep dry, then down is great. I have been using a down bag for about 7 years and no problems with wetness yet.

First thing in camp I set up my tent and pull out my bag to fluff up, air out, and dry from any moisture...regardless of what kind of bag.”

“I am like a cat: I hate getting wet. I will be super carefull to keep my bag and other stuff dry.

Unfortunately, dispite my dislike of the wet element, I have a tendency to fall into the water. I happened to end up under kayaks, rafting boats and such. I must have used up some of my seven lifes that way. I hope there are still some left?”

“Properly designed and sewn synthetic bags won't have cold spots unless they have sewn through construction in a single layer. They don't drape as well as down so it takes longer for them to warm up. Primaloft comes close to draping as well as down. It's soft enough that you'd almost be fooled into thinking it's a down bag when you first touch a sleeping bag made from it.”

“I've been camping since about 1967 and can remember only one time when I have had my sleeping bag get wet. That was last spring when my partner left the door of the ten open and a torrential downpour dumped water into the tent. It was a Marmot Helium down bag. I got in the tent, mopped up as much standing water as possibe and shook the water beads off the bag. By the end of the night we were floating on our air mattreses (Exped Downmat 9.) The water was mostly pooled under the tent floor. I was comfortably warm and mostly dry.

I carry the bag in a waterproof stuff sac with the roll down top (light weight type.) I've never had a problem with it getting wet in the pack, even in rain without a packcover.

You just have to think about making sure you keep it dry.”

“Exactly what I said...now can we get back to fuego...”

“"What's the postition of the NOLs folks on this matter?"

I guess that means I should chime in. Personally I prefer down, lighter and more compact - synthetic is just a pain to pack on an extended trip. Most of the time you can keep a bag dry if you put your mind to it, a wet synthetic bag sucks as well. And if a bag gets wet, most of the time you can dry it in the sun, in the very rare instance that you got your bag wet, couldn't dry it out - you'll still survive.”

“Good point - surviving is everything. I will make that my top priority. Second priority: keeping my downs dry.”

“buy down

'nuff said.”

“down.”

“Always carry a bivy sack for your down bag.”

“I tarp 3 seasons (not summer, bad bugs) and use down all year round. Even in a massive T storm (mammoth cave TT trip 06) with a tornado passing through we stayed bone dry in our tarp, saw others wringing out bags the next morn...Used a bivy in the service. Id use one but they are pricey and can be heavy.”

“Does anyone have any experience with a down bag becoming ice-bound after a multi-day trip below freezing? One thing I've heard to combat that is a vapor-barrier liner.

What's the scoop on that?”

“About the wettest I've gotten a down bag was on a winter trip and the moisture didn't come from the outside, but from me being totally soaked from sweat and snowmelt during the day. All the clothes I had were wet and there was no way to dry anything out. Since we were leaving the next day, I crawled into my bag with the clothes I had on. During the night all that moisture went right into the down and the bag lost about half its loft and weighed much more than it did before. It got down to 3 degrees at night. If I had to stay out another night in that bag in those temperatures I would have been cold the next night. The bag was a -15 North face down bag with 8.5 inches of loft. I know it's bad idea to sleep with wet clothes, but since I was leaving the next day I made the choice to push all the moisture into the bag and dry out overnight to hike out the next day with dry clothes.

I've used vapor barrier clothing in the past to sleep in, but never a vapor barrier liner in a sleeping bag.”

“Tilt, I have read (never tried it) that if its cold, well below freezing, that the easiest way to dry a sleepy bag or damp clothes is to rub snow on em as the snow is very dry at such cold temps and it'll draw out extra moisture.

A VBL could work too, though I have never used one.”

“I use two bags. Down for winter (Sierra Designs Thor 0 degree) and colder months, syn in warmer months (Sierra Designs 35 degree bag). I have been dry since switching to the Thor. It has "waterproof" outer layer that keeps the moisture from my body from condensing on the outside of the bag and "damping" the bag from the outside in. That last bag was an REI 0 degree Downtime -- a real choice piece of garbage.

Down is the best, IMHO. Sleep like a puff ball.”

“El Cue, it's yoo!

Gremlin uses a vapor barrier on the FYAO Trip.

On several sub-freezing trips when soaked from sweat I have slept with the bag on top with the zipper open and my feet in the foot box.
My wet back is directly on the Thermarest and the bag draped over and tucked under my shoulders.
I wear a hat and wrap my head with my fleece jacket if necessary.
This has allowed the sweat to evaporate up while keeping my back from wetting the bag.

I like to tarp in the non-buggy seasons and can't recall ever getting wet.”

“The way I heard it, water vapor from your skin can pass through the inner wall of the bag and freeze before it passes through the outer wall.  Granted it isn't a whole lot, just coming from your skin (not what you exhale), but if you're continuously below freezing day after day it can build up(?)

I've also heard a VBL can add about 10° to your setup.... but they can be uncomfortable.  Seems like there were some stories of people using trash bags that way to get a little more warmth.... like the famous Hefty Rainsuit.”

“I carry a VBL in winter months, but only as a backup. I've never had to use it; hopefully that trend continues.”

“W.M,Hilleberg,and the better Half.”

“I know we've beat this topic to death, but I'm thinking about getting a down bag and I'm kinda nervous.
Here's what I'm looking at: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/319,78019_Marmot-20-F-Medicine-Bow-Down-Sleeping-Bag-Long-Mummy.html”

“for what time of year? or to use all year?

and that thing weighs 3lbs...daaauuummn
last edited: 1/11/08 4:49:36 PM”