Penn Grand Canyon Trail -Fall

“Lyndy, I hiked down to Choke Creek today on the Pinchot Trail and I didn't see one tick. I was surprised, but glad it wasn't infested with them. I followed the stream up into the gamelands for about a quarter mile and there's a big beaver dam up there, but still no ticks. There was a group of boy scouts hiking the trail, but I didn't see anyone else.”

“I've ordered a bunch of maps on different trails and state forests in PA, including the Pinchot. Thanks for the details on your hike. I have a book from the library with a map of the Choke Creek trail, and I would like to do more of the hike again this weekend sometime.

I asked the outfitter group near the PA canyon to send me a list of the publications available on PA trails including the canyon. When I get it, I can fax or email a copy of it to anyone else who wants it.”

“I'd like a copy, please, thank you!”

“I'll take a copy, too, please. Thanks for all your research.”

“I have a box stuffed with maps of PA. from my hikes and bike trips over the years.”

“Yesterday I got maps from the DCNR and my membership stuff from the Keystone Trails Assoc. Hopefully I will get the order list from Pine Creek today. I will scan it and email to those who requested it.

I didn't get out to hike in PA last weekend, but now that I have maps for the Pinchot and the Thunder Swamp trails, I can't wait to check them out. The KTA is going to do a trail maintenance weekend on the Loggers Path this coming weekend, with Tom Thwaites leading. He's the one who wrote the 50 Hikes in Eastern PA, 50 in Central PA, etc. books.”

“I received a very informative 20 pg newsletter from the Pine Creek Outfitters. Inside was the list of publications available. My scanner currently won't work because it is hooked up through a switchbox, which is apparently a no-no. My husband gets maniacal when I touch computer cords, so I'll let him rearrange them tonight. In the meantime, look up the website www.pinecrk.com for most of the publications listed. They can be ordered over the phone with a credit card at 570-724-3003 and shipped the same day. The "Guide to the West Rim Trail" includes a waterproof topo map as well as a 108 page guide, for $6.75 plus shipping. There are other guides and books on PA state forests written by Chuck Dillon that sound very useful, as well.”

“Thanks for all the info concerning the maps.
I went up to Choke Creek yesterday to fish the stream, but it was running low and warm so I caught and released just one trout. I saw 3 snakes down there 2 of them swimming across a beaver dam and another garter snake right at the spot where I decided to set my fly rod next to a bush. He never moved and remained still in the hopes that I wouldn't see him. The other 2 snakes looked like water snakes.
I wish the state would outlaw fires. People keep siting fire rings right next to the trail down there and most of them are filled with half burned trash and mounds of ashes next to them. Pretty ugly and totally unnecessary in such a nice place.”

“When I looked at my map for Pinchot, I realized that I had headed for the Painter Creek, not the Choke Creek. Having a map of the whole system is much better than the little map in the book. I got a Kelty ext frame kid backpack in the mail today for my older daughter, that I had bought on ebay. No instructions, so I have to figure it out. Looks like it fits and should help when we head out for a backpacking trip.

It's a shame about the trash and fire rings so close to the trail. I don't know if it is ignorance or disinterest that causes people to create eyesores. Looking at the map, it seems that the Pinchot and Thunder Swamp trails run pretty close to private property. Are these residential areas or uninhabited privately owned forest areas? Which trail group does maintenance on these trails? Maybe hikers are not creating all the trash and campfires. Could local people come in from surrounding property?”

“I don't know the area around the Thunder Swamp Trail since I've never hiked it. The area around the Pinchot Trail is mostly state gamelands and some privately owned. It is all forested and some owners are sportsmen clubs and watershed land that used to be owned by PA. Gas and Water Co. which is now in private hands and threatened for development. The land below Painter Creek is the land that may be lost unless Defendourwatershed.com can do something to stop it. This land feeds the reservoirs that provides water for the entire valley so it's critical that it remain free of development, yet there are no laws to protect it. Nobody wants to drink someone's sewer water so I hope something can be done soon. Also development could effect the recharge capacity of the reservoirs in times of drought.
I don't know of any groups that maintain the Pinchot trail. I think it's really a lack of leave no trace ethics as far as fires go. I did a thread about this sometime ago and most people do make fires as I expected. The problem is that most people out there don't know how to make them so they don't become an eyesore and most people think that flames can burn anything so when someone leaves half burned trash around the next person is likely to do it to. I hate coming up to a pristine place and seeing a fire ring there. When you hike to Choke Creek you'll notice that there's limited sites down there in the summer because everything is grown in. Every site down there has a fire ring with scattered ashes and it becomes a mess that's why I'd like to see fires banned. It probably wouldn't do any good because fires are banned on the gamelands, but there's plenty of fire rings anyway. I rarely ever camp in spots where other people have previously camped since I don't make fires. I fill a water bag and go way off the trail and pick a durable site. The area around a fire ring is about appealing to me as a gas station bathroom. I'd never stay in a trail shelter for the same reason and I'd just pick a different place to hike.”

“Hopefully the group mentioned can arrange for protection for the watershed area. My town is almost all septic, and yet the water is drawn from an aquifer. Some people have 1/2 acre properties and have septic and well water! We started to filter our water a couple of years ago, when it started to taste really chlorinated. Clean water is definitely the future crisis in this country.

Steiny and Buddur, you guys asked for the Pine Creek outfitter publication list for the PA canyon. My scanner works but it won't scan clear enough to make a readable document. I can fax it or you can order from the website, www.pinecrk.com. You could email me at lyndi10@yahoo.com for a fax.”

“I added up the names of people who said that Sept. 29 was good, and there were 5 names, vs 4 names for the Oct. 6 weekend, so let's agree that the trip is on Sat-Sun, Sept 29-30. Please email me at lyndi10@yahoo.com so that we can have a complete list of those people interested in going, even if you are not positive you are going. We need to pick an exact route, which we can do when more people have maps. RichB and Violin have already mentioned some possibilities.”

“I'm game.

Can't remember what the possibilities are as far as trails...can we get some general info as to the areas again (not necessarily the trails).”

“Buddur, the canyon is northwest of Williamsport, west of Wellsboro, PA. There are two trails, the West Rim Trail and the Black Forest Trail. I ordered the guide and maps to each. The West Rim (30 miles)starts in Ansonia and heads south past Blackwell. The Black Forest starts below Blackwell, is more rugged, 42 miles, has some nice vistas, and can be broken into shorter loops (I am quoting RichB on a thread titled Worlds End Loyalsock, before we switched to planning a canyon trip). The West Rim requires that you leave a car at each end because it is not a loop. See the website www.pinecrk.com for more info.”

“I hate to commit its so final. The last time commited to something it got me in a whole lot of trouble........oh and by the way I looking into a bed and breakfast for my wife the last weekend of Sept. Thats her idea of roughing it!”

“sirpete - Lemme know what you find out about B&B or lodging in the area. I'd like to bring my sweetie along, but she has MS and can hike about 100 feet a day; obviuosly not going with me. The alternative is a long side trip down to Philly to leave her with cousin.”

“I got the maps and after staring at them til I'm blind, I have to say that the Black Forest trail looks a little more interesting to me. It intersects so many other trails and dirt roads that there are many possibilities for routes that loop back to the parked cars. The West Rim is pretty straight forward, in that you can do all thirty miles or something shorter than that, but you will need to shuttle, with at least one car at each end. The BFT does a lot of stream crossings. I don't think there are as many on the WRT. If there is a lot of rain, that would be a consideration.

Certain loops on the BFT can be longer for the group, with a shortcut or two for me, if needed. Some sections of the trail are straight up or straight down, which obviously are challenging, but there are a lot of trail sections that follow the contour lines. The map that Pine Creek Outfitters sent is by the Tiadaghton Forest Fire Fighter's Assoc. and it seems like a great map. Campsites (suggested?) near creeks are noted along with mileages and parking sites. There are more parking sites than I would have expected. I will look at possible loops and email to those interested.”

“Stieny my wife bailed I will be coming out alone”

“Hey, I might be interested in joining this one. I've backpacked the West Rim Trail three times before, but am about due for another excursion there. I live in northeast PA.

Some things I know about the WRT: The topography is mostly easy-to-moderate, with only a few steeper sections. Water sources are fairly regular, although a stream crossing or two might be drying up, depending on previous meteorological conditions. Established tent sites (most having fire rings) are regular along the way, but stealth sites can also be set up in places. As I recall, some vistas have tent sites, but they're dry (except for just north of Bradley Wales Picnic Area, which has one of those old water pumps).

Oh yeah, the vistas? the vistas are spectacular! Hopefully the weather cooperates.

Don't mean to throw a fly into the monkey wrench, but here are some things to consider: 1) Fall colors in northern PA usually peak during the first couple weeks of October. 2) The WRT is popular, and if the hues are good this year, and the weather is nice when you go, expect a lot of other people doing the same. 3) To do the whole trail on a Saturday-Sunday arrangement would require c.15 miles per day - a bit much for some folks with full packs, as well as those who like a slower pace to splendor the journey (a 3-day trek is much more enjoyable). 4) Pine Creek Outfitters on US Route 6 offers a shuttle service (not sure of the cost, but its reasonable). They'll drop you off at any point along the trail, so you don't have to do the full 30 miles if you're not so inclined - yet still get a good feel for the whole WRT (I suggest the northern majority of the trail, as it has the lion's share of the best vistas).

A few other tidbits for any who may be interested:
* Pine Creek Outfitters is only a few miles from the north trailhead. They sell some gear, food, maps, trail guides, etc. Pine Creek Outfitters also has canoe and raft rentals. Chuck Dillon (the owner) has a dry sense of humor.
* There's a small store/deli about a mile beyond the WRT's north terminus that sells decent subs and great ice cream (I don't know the hours of operation).
* The famous Wellsboro Diner in nearby Wellsboro, PA is a great place to eat.
* Wellsboro itself is a quaint little town. and may be having some Fall Foliage festivities around that time of the year.
* The old railroad bed that runs through the canyon along Pine Creek has been converted to a Rails-to-Trails path, which I think is supposed to eventually stretch all the way down to Jersey Shore, PA.
* The north end of the Mid State Trail connects to the WRT at Bohen Run - about 3-1/2 miles north of the WRT's southern trailhead.
* The Black Forest Trail is to the south. Great place! Been there many times.
* The Golden Eagle Trail (no camping) is just south of the BFT. An unforgettable dayhike.
* The Susquehannock Trail System is west/southwest of the PA Grand Canyon. Its northernmost trailhead is at the State Forestry Office, right on Route 6.
* Horseback riding and Wagon rides into Pine Creek Gorge are available.
* Colton Point State Park is on the west rim of the canyon, and directly across from it on the east rim is Leonard Harrison State Park.

A question: If I go, will anyone mind if my dog Sparky comes along? He's a nice boy, doesn't bite, and is very well behaved (except for sometimes trying to mooch food - an uncivilized habit for which my wife and daughter are responsible). Being a Border Collie, he likes to keep track of everyone on the trail -- thinks hikers are sheep of some kind - wants to keep 'em together, get 'em safely to the barn, and is always on the lookout for wolves.

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PS: Speaking of ticks... Re. Thunder Swamp Trail. TST is in the eastern Poconos, and not far from Promised Land State Park/Bruce Lake Natural Area. I can't speak for Thunder Swamp itself because I haven't been there yet, but the few times I hiked the trail around Bruce Lake during the Spring time, there were ticks galore! Never encountered any during colder weather though. Just thought somebody out there might want to know.

Okay, I better go get a life now?”

“M Silver, where do you live? I grew up in northeastern PA. Bradford County about 20 miles from Towanda-. Lived in Wellsboro for a time as a child and going to the diner back then was a treat. Only two blocks away from Tasty Freeze though. I still have a pile of family in Wellsboro.”

“M. Silver, thank you very much for all that information! We've started discussing exact trail choice through email, so email me at lyndi10@yahoo.com to join in. The fall colors are later than I expected. Here in northwest NJ we lose a lot of leaves by the second week of Oct. I would have thought the canyon was earlier. It will be great to have someone along who is so familiar with the area. As far as I know, the list so far includes Buddur, Steiny, Sir Pete, gonzo, RichB, adventurist and myself. Several other people are maybe joining in.”

“There is still a slight possibility that I may come. things in my life are up in the air, and it's hard for me to plan anything too far into the future!”

“Okay, Buddha, the group isn't that large. More people joining in shouldn't be a problem.”

“Glad yer interested Mr.silver.

This trip shouldn't be as cold and snowy as the Catskills one (lol).”

“Buddur...

...and hopefully no PA Forest Ranger will scold us for something (ala "Catskill Rudge") :-)

You're coming eh? Will that human of yours (Tom) be tagging along? ;-)”

“If we do the a part of the Black Forest Trail the only stream crossing that's substantial is Slate Run the other streams are smaller and I never had a problem crossing them. In 1995, I crossed Slate Run on a suspension bridge, but it was in bad shape and you needed to be like the Great Walenda to cross it. Unless someone fixed it, it's probably worse now. I never had much trouble crossing streams out there and just bring ultra light waders if they're high and cold.
One good loop on this trail starts at Pump station fire tower and descends into Callahan Run and Naval Run, through little Slate Run and back to the parking area. Lots of ups and downs, but nice views and a good Sat. and Sunday loop.”

“That looks like a good route, RichB. Maybe less crowded than the Rim. I don't know what the other guys want. We have emailed a few times and the West Rim has come up a lot. I don't have your email address. Mine is listed earlier in this thread. Since the Rim involves shuttling, I like a loop better. Then slower people don't hold up the faster hikers. A couple of us may start out on Friday afternoon, so that we can enjoy the scenery more.”

“I would think the shuttle from Pine Creek Outfitters to the southern terminus of the West Rim trail or some intermediate point, and hiking back to the vehicles parked at the outfitter would be a satisfactory to slow / fast hikers. The West Rim really deserves 3 nights / 4 days to hike it and enjoy the scenery from what everyone tells me.”

“True, I hadn't thought about hiking south to north. That would be a good possibility. There are lots of places that a shuttle can drop hikers off at. Still have to find out about campsite availability, though, since it may be busy that weekend. I'll go stare at the maps some more. Everyone else who's going, please offer your $.02.”

“Wow, there's a Grand Canyon in Pennsylvania?”

“No offense there jj-murray but it is only 30 miles of practically flat land. 3-4 days and you will be down in Jersey Shore with all the sites to boot! I mean really now?”

“Jeez sirpeteofmillwork. A speed hiker? I always take backpacking as a way to slow down and enjoy the fall colors and trail. Chuck Dillon?s guidebook say?s 2.5 to 3.5 days. I have done the rail trail on bike in a day and floated back down in two. I can?t imagine hiking it in 2 and attempting to enjoy it or claim to be able to take in the scenery.”

“SirPete, I've been emailing the people who said they are going and you have not responded. Are you not getting the emails or are you choosing not to vote on the route? Have you hiked any of these trails before?

Pedxing, I have not emailed you because I don't know if you are coming for the Sept.28-30 weekend. Let us know, okay?”

“I have been getting all the e-mails however I have been very busy with preping for the White Mts trip in 3 weeks and would be of little use in the planning stage. I will be up for whatever others are going to do however I won't be able to take Friday off so what ever you guys do keep in mind I will need to catch up on friday night late. I walk in the dark a lot so I'm not to concerned about that.”

“Hi folks,

The weekend of this trip has just opened up for me and I might be able to make this one. So if there is room for one more, would someone e-mail any details and info.

ghost_trekker@yahoo.com

Thanks, ghost”

“I wanted to bring this thread up to the top again. I believe that the some of us will hike the Black Forest Trail on Sept. 28-30, and some of us will hike part or all of the West Rim Trail the weekend of Oct. 19.

If you are interested in this hike, we've been planning the details through emails. Contact me at lyndi10@yahoo.com. We were planning to meet up at a common campsite area on Sat. night but people will be starting at different times and hiking at their own pace. A few will hike out on Friday afternoon and camp near the trail Friday night and then meet the rest of the group on Saturday at the evening's campsite. Then people will finish at their own pace on Sunday back to their cars.

If I have misspoke, let me know, but this is my recollection of what we are doing on the BFT. The West Rim Oct trip has not been discussed in detail yet, but leaves will be down so the foliage tourists should be fewer for the Rim trail then. If you do not have maps yet, you can get them from www.pinecrk.com ahead of time, or just before the hike at the store in Ansonia. You need a (free?) camping permit, also available from Pine Creek Outfitters.”

“Sounds good to me.”

“Still plannin' to be there in Sept! Got a wedding Oct 20, though.”

“Hey Lyndy,
Are you getting permits for all of us, or do we need to do that ourselves? In advance, or can we get them Friday morning when we get there? Do we have a common Saturday site picked out, a route, etc? Drop me a line when you get a chance -before the 5th or after the 17th. I'm not sure how long the cyber PO will hold mail for me while I'm in NC.”

“About permits, I don't know what the deal is , I'll have to call and ask. Considering different start and stop times, I would think we should all carry our permits. About the Sat night campsite, I think RichB outlined the possibilities. I have to look at what he said, the guidebook and question the Outfitter group about the current water supplies and possible campsites in the recommended areas. I won't be able to call until tomorrow afternoon. I will email the campsite details and permit details to everyone going.”

“permits are free for groups under 10, I believe (or that is the way it used to be). Call the DNR and they'll mail them to you.

Pine Creek offers excellent shuttle services and the owner, Chuck Dillon, is the author of the West Rim Trail Guide and a BFT guide too...he can offer all sorts of trail advice and great stories too! He drives like a maniac though. Buckle up! =:0”

“I did speak to Chuck tonight, and he was very helpful. I'm going to call the state forest office tomorrow to see about getting the permits, and get the latest rules on campsites there. Chuck said that a couple of descents were very steep and tricky, and that we should be very careful there.”

“"...steep and tricky...???

Sounds good to me!”

“Yeah, I thought steep and tricky was good too, until I tried to do it with a 30 lb pack on. Then I felt very clumsy. That's usually where the best views are, though.”