Llama trip misc. from Phil

“I can't wait! Just a few more days.

I think I have the Dutch oven menu figured out for Sunday at Mel's. I have three of four dishes set and am debating about the last one. A couple of my friends (also backpackers) will be in the area so they will be joining us for dinner. They couldn't make it on the Llama hike. You will like them.

Keep in mind that when we are hiking with Llamas, we usually hit the trail around 10 a.m. It takes a while to get those guys packed up. As WE get the routine figured out and can help, the time can be cut by an hour. We make up for it with some speed from carrying less weight on our backs. However, make sure you have your foul weather gear with you in your pack.

Mel has a special language she uses with the Llamas. It is an interesting dialect of English that consists of mostly four letter words. Mel speaks it fluently. Fortunately she usually goes out ahead and we don't have to listen to their conversation all day long.

The Eastern Sierras and Western Sierras are different. The Eastern Sierras are high elevation (mostly about 9000 ft) and less vegetation. Some places almost look like moonscapes. The beauty can be breathtaking. There are lots of wooded areas, but it is not lush.

The Western Sierra is lower elevation (under 9000 ft.) and is often lush. There are groves of Giant Sequoias in some places. There is more water and definitely more (and smarter) bears.

Weather can be very upredictable with rain in the afternoons sometimes. Always be prepared for rain.

The Mt. Whitney group has an extra challenge. The last night we will be at Trail Camp. It is known for two things: Wind and hard ground. I am bringing "rock bags" to use instead of stakes (stakes are very difficult to use at Trail Camp according to some of my friends). A rock bag is like a stuff sack that you fill with rocks. Then, after placing it, you cover it with rocks also.

Mel's mileages from the Topo program were underestimated by the software. Add about 25% to all the estimates she originally gave. However, I figure that days 2 & 3 shouldn't be too bad since we are not changing elevation too much.

I think we will be eating breakfast at Tom's Place on Monday morning (I hope) and then a late lunch at Las Casitas in Bishop. Las Casitas is an EXCELLENT Mexican restaurant (I am very fond of their carnitas). Cash Only. Mel can confirm that when we get there.

I am bringing a couple of appetizers to share with others. It kind of spices things up. If you have something you want to bring to spice things up, please do.

Sushi lovers - I have the stuff to make California rolls. The fresh stuff we can pick up just before we leave. I was debating making it the first night out. We can discuss it at Mel's.

More later, I am sure.”

“Yall have fun! Be sure to remember ya underwear too!!”

“Thanks!

Correction: The Eastern Sierra are mostly "above" 9000 ft.”

“Phil....are you trying to scare me? :)

what is the probability of snow way up there Phil? and are there many tricky creek crossings? I am having a boot dilemma ( i gotta fly...so i really cant bring a choice of boot....I have to choose the ones able to handle MOST of the conditions, i would pefer to use the lightweight(waterproof fabric) low/mid trail runners ( I have a hard time with high boots, or should i say, the 6 inch pieces of metal on my ankle does, i cant stand anything rubbing on that )........these others have a sole and toe like a regular boot with excellent traction and stability for me...specially if there is rock hopping involved.....anyway, without getting too nuts here....what are the chances we would be crunching thru snow?

i have the same tent as you....now how many extra stuff bags do you think will do the job and can they be like plastic grocery bags or heavy duty ziplocks?

I have never carried hiking poles....do you think they are a necessity? of course i have never hiked over 11K feet, so maybe i should get some huh? to lean on when i am gasping every ten feet.....?
man, i am glad i have two days in sacramento....i can do last minute shopping there.”

“OM - Not to worry. Rain is possible. On Whitney itself snow flurries are possible, but ice is less likely. Based on your description, I would bring the low/mid trail runners. I must admit that I don't have waterproof boots. We will have some rock hopping and stream crossing, but our hike is not known for that being a problem.

I use a hiking stick and am a big believe in trekking poles and hiking sticks. It really takes the stress and strain off of your knees, adds stability, and give some extra help during stream crossings and rough terrain. Lots of threads have discussed this. I don't think poles are an altitude issue.

I use lots of Ziplock bags for clothes such as shirts, socks, underwear, etc. I use a couple of stuff sacks for organizing purposes. One of my stuff sacks has a felt lining inside so you can turn it inside out and make a pillow.”

“thank you phil.......i am set!
i read that there is an rei in sacramento and was planning on getting poles there...i will nix the trip to tnf sale (would spend what i would save probably in travel) and use that money toward poles.
oh. i am a ziplock queen....i was just wondering how they would do for rock bags to stake tent.

counting down...only 3 days until take off for me....three days work, with three softball games each night...

5 more days you californians!!!!”

“OM - Don't hold back your excitement! It is OK to let it out! LOL

I don't think ziplocks are strong enough for rock bags. I am using borrowed ones home-made from rip-stop nylon. If I wanted my own, I would just buy some medium-sized stuff sacks.

In general, however, Ziplocks rule. I carry lots of extra ones for things that come up. A new thing I plan to try is putting water in gallon size ziplocks and setting them in the sun to warm up and use for bathing.

By-the-way, I am using a borrowed "Kelty Assault" tent, rather than my new Inyo 2. I figured for the extra 1.5 pounds I would go with the free standing, 4 season and extra head room. If I couldn't borrow the Kelty, I would use my Inyo 2. I am also going to be Obi Wan Canoli's backup plan for foul weather. He is using a bivy sack, but can share my tent if we have bad weather.”

“I recall Mel saying that we should bring 5 gallon tubs for our food to go on the llamas. Was I hallucinating? What are other people using for their stuff the llamas will be carrying? What is this trip going to be like?????

What is the final count of how many people are going on this adventure?

The Sunday night dinner sounds fabulous - I will be driving down in the afternoon so I'm not sure I will be there for early coctails.

For the Whitney group - Trail Camp is wall to wall tents - an odd experience if you just spent 5 days in the relative isolation of the west side of the Sierra.

Om - I have a thing or two to pick up at REI on Saturday - wanna go together? email me.”

“In the past Mel had some 5 gallon buckets with snap-on lids that we put our food in. I am guessing she doesn't feel she has enough buckets this time and is asking people to bring some if they have them.

Each llama has two saddle bags. Inside the bags go the 5 gallon buckets, stuff sacks with gear, stoves, fuel etc.

Things like tents and sleeping pads are lashed to the top with bungee cords.

What makes loading difficult, is that each side of the saddlebags must weigh approximately the same so the load is balanced for the llama. Also, she gives each llama a different amount of weight, depending on their size and history. She has different styles of bags that she puts on different llamas also. It is sort of an art and a science. After few days we should know what to put in the saddle bags for each llama and how to balance the loads.

When we get to camp, we lay out a groundcloth and set out he bags. People grab their gear to set up camp. In the morning, people pile their stuff back on the groundcloth for packing.”

“In lieu of rock bags tie off to a small rock and then put a big rock on the string”

“so....., sleeping out like the cowboys did beside a big rock rolled up in a horse blanket ( down bag) under a starry dome isnt an option? durn......
i guess with all those tents up i could crawl in with somebody if i cant get the rock technique to work....heh ....would take some getting used to for me...sleepin with someone else.....LOL...jus kidding....

sure pepperdog, sounds good....i will email you later with where i am staying....”

“Hey pepperdog, what's the Sacto REI like? Never been there, though it's probably as close to me as Berkeley. Concord REI is around 45 minutes, but Berkeley's huge. What's the scoop on it?

OM - No set plans, really, but probably getting an early start Sunday... how's 9-10 sound to ya?”

“OM - On the first Llama-Rama we got nailed with a nasty hailstorm. I was glad I had a weatherproof tent (unfortunately it weighed 8 lbs!!!).

The next year I took a solo tent without a full rain fly (Eureka Zephyr). We had some rain and I wished I had brought a better tent.

This is my compromise year: Kelty Assault (5 lbs before adding the groundcloth and rock bags).

The Sierras make their own weather and some of it is unpredictable.”

“Phil, I hope you have a great time on the llamarama trip. You do so much good everywhere in your life. I hope your get great weather & catch big fish if you are going fishing again.

Have a great time everybody!”

“lh - Thanks! I am looking forward to a good time with good people.”

“I Am Om are you hiking out over Whitney with the 7 day crew?”

“Regarding rock bags. I think the only place we need to worry about not getting stakes in the ground is Trail Camp...and that is only for the Whitney group.

I think OM is still in a 10 day group...let's see if she confirms that.”

“Correction to my 10:58 a.m. post: My tent will be Naviguesser's bivy sack back up, not Obi Wan Canoli's.”

“Phil...I cant say if this is a confirmation...as...i generally go with the "this is the day the lord hath made" mindset..
but I have never been known for predictability.

Hail? Phil...you keep adding stuff at the last minute ...yer killing me...should I bring my motorcycle helmet? i have to ask myself...what would the cowboys do in hail?

Mozark....I have been leaning that way...I am being beckoned by some outer space unknown to not miss meandering thru a grove of giant trees and hanging out with them for one night at least....but again...geesh...Whitney is big!...so...this trip is one step at a time for me man...I got no way of knowing what adventures are in store!! do any of us???? I just get on that wavelength and well...you know.....

Obi...you are the bus driver.....early is good ...you know where that place is? is it in skid row? heh....dont tell me ...

why am i still up at this hour?, mad cows - 16 the other team - 3......moooo (backwards for oooom)”

“Obi - The Sacto REI is nothing to write home about, much more on the order of the Concord one than the Berkeley one. The huge advantage to me is that it is about 15 minutes from my home instead of an hour and a half (not to mention that awful Bay Area traffic).”

“Phil?

Is there something I should know?

Pepperdog... Okee Dokee on the REI size. Good to have one so close, though.

OM - Don't know anything about the area you're staying in. If you want to join in on the Tuo,umne Meadows hike afterwards, you're certainly welcome. So far, there don't appear to be many takers... me & hikerchic5 so far, no one else appears interested, and since time's running short, it would seem we'll be a small group.”

“obi...would love to join the touloume meadows but, I have to be back sometime before 6 am sunday morning tho (flight). so, I was not sure what your daily schedule was for that hike. .....

Pepperdog...as soon as they let me slack here at work I will send you the addy and phone.

hey, who was it on a thread about sacramento a while back mentioned havin a beer on the riverfront at sunset on Saturday night............Its time!!”

“obi - Naviguesser is taking a bivy sack and asked me if I he could share my tent in case of foul weather. In return he offered to carry my tent poles. I accidently mentioned your name when referring to it.

OM - We usually have small hail out here (scroll down)...not Texas size. When will you make a decision about the Whitney thing? (Or have you and I just didn't understand).”

“Phil, thanks for the correction. I was starting to worry. Then again confusing me with anyone else, maybe I should start worring about you. 8^)”

“Worry about my memory. I used to think that being an "absent minded professor" was an urban legend, until I became one! All these trail names get confusing. That is why I stick with one name for both. It is a lot easier to remember one. Not only that, some people use their last name for email addresses and you have to remember that also (Good thing I have tenure!).

(Note: sometimes people email me their photos and stuff and never mention their trail name. I have to reply to them and say, "Great Pics! ...but what name would you like these under?")”

“phil, i was hoping that while on vacation from work I would not have to make decisions....:)........
However, as we get closer, I do want to try whitney, and I do want to spend a couple of days in the groves, so.....back when i was trying to get my shuttles before and after...being a 7 day tripper was more of a reality based plan to achieve the above ...I want to do it all in two weeks.......but again........the path will determine what i will do come the time!”

“Pray that nothing happens to any of the llamas on thier current trip, otherwise we will be packing more then we planned on. As it is I have enough to start a trading post at Crabtree Lakes. [note that I said trading post not gift shop] Need many beaver skins.”

“They shipped my pack! They shipped my pack! It should be here Friday!

(PackLite, Backcountry, 4200 c.i., 3# 10 oz.)”

“old timer. lol.....funny, I was thinking about the poor llamas too, wont they be tired? I wouldnt want them to give out...so, i am still trying to pack as if i will be carrying it all.

I am flying , so the tendency to think the llamas will carry extra luxuries is already curbed anyway by the thought...., "I aint gonna lug it thru airports"...”

“Laid out most of my food tonight and bagged it up. I am trying some new stuff for me. For example, many more energy bars and less trailmix. More protein in the morning and less carbs.

If the llamas don't show, I'm dead!

OM - Do you still have a car reserved at Inyokern?”

“was going to confirm them at airport in SAC when I get there on ....yikes...tomorrow!”

“My bear cannister arrived yesterday and is already backed to the brim.

On the Whitney leg I know we can get water at Guitar Lake where is the next watering hole?”

“Speaking of the Lamas does anyone have a clue as to the final weight allowances per person? I only recall vague references to floating variables.

I'm hoping for 9 lbs per person but 15 lbs would be great.”

“I believe it will be closer to 20# each, if not more. We have 16 people, and 10 llama's. They can carry 70-85# ea., according to Mel. Do the math, allowing, of course, for the llama food! I have no idea what THAT could be, though.

Om - why don't you plan to join us in TM for a hike on Friday? Saturday might be pushing the envelope for you, though, given that 6 a.m. Sunday flight out, but if you can manage it, plan for Saturday too.

Old Timer - I got a few last minute things I just KNOW I'm gonna need... how late is the store open? LOL

Naviguesser - Since I haven't met Phil (or anyone else on this hike, for that matter), I can't speak to his Freudian potential for the slip... in fact, I haven't seen the faux paux. In any event, if shelter is needed, I have room.”

“ok...i dont want to bring a down jacket...ya think a wool lined rainparka over a fleece will do in a snowstorm?
i am getting the last minute neurosis now.”

“Mozark - If we have 9 or 10 llamas, we should be in good shape the first three days. I don't recall the exact amount Mel said, but with 6 people and 4 llamas last year the llamas were carrying about 15 lbs. of my stuff as I recall. the first year we had 10 people and 3 llamas. I think they carried about 10 lbs. (mostly food). However, after that, the Whitney group carries everything. The group that stays with Mel will have it made the last part of the trip.

After Guitar Lake, the next water is at Trail Camp on the other side. We have to lug our water for the summit side trip up to Trail Crest. I am figuring on filling both my platypus bags, 3.6 Liters total. The hike up to Trail Crest is the one concerning me most.

OM - leave the bulky down jacket at home. The parka and fleece should do it and layer much better.

I would say, if in doubt, bring stuff along to Mel's. We usually spend the morning before we head for Bishop shaking out our gear and doing our final packing. Leave stuff you end up not wanting in the car you will be going back in.

BTW. Dutch oven menu now finalized and most supplies have been acquired. Should be plenty of food. Not sure if I am going to make 1 or 2 cobblers yet. We'll see how many people show up. Remember: According to my friend who is a fitness expert, CARBO LOAD TIME starts TWO days before the event, not the night before (In fact, he says you should increase the protein the night before and morning of. It is more efficient energy).”

“Is is silly for me to bring apples and oranges? I really love fresh fruit on the trail.

I wouldn't worry too much about a snow storm (now that I've said that it is bound to happen).”

“Phil--

You wrote:

>>After Guitar Lake, the next water is at Trail Camp on >>the other side. We have to lug our water for the >>summit side trip up to Trail Crest.

A Posting on SoCalHikers yesterday said there is a stream crossing about a mile past Guitar Lake. That's where my group plans to camp before we make our attempt. We will be about a week behind you.
Rand”

“Rand,

Thanks for the information. We will probably do that also. Do you know what the fishing is like at Guitar Lake? (or the nearest fishing to that camp spot?)”

“As I recall, once you leave Guitar Lake you don't do much but up switchbacks over moonscape. I don't remember many camping options after Guitar Lake.”

“Hey guys just checking in before we all head out! I can't wait to get out of here. Lookin' forward to seeing you all!

I would think that unless Guitar Lake is stocked annually by air that it must be pretty well fished out. Maybe even closed? I don't remember seeing anyone fishing there? You guys might want to camp on the benches up trail above Guitar Lake. I don't recall one particular "stream crossing" but there were several small tarns and trickles running here and there so water shouldn't be a problem. It gets you away from the crowd at Guitar Lake and gives you a jump on the climb to Trail Crest in the morning.

Meanwhile, I've got the permit for the splinter group going over the pass into Miter Basin and rejoining the llama gang at Soldier Lake. Just wondering who else from the 10-day group was going this way? And will Solitary still be there waiting when we get there?”

“About 4 miles North of the Crabtree Junction with the JMT, then 3 miles East, is Wallace Lake. From previous information provided by Mel, this lake should have some great fishing.

About 6 miles North of the Crabtree Junction, along the JMT, is the Bighorn Plateau, ENE of which is the Wright Lakes Basin. A little further ENE (2.9 miles +/- from the JMT) is an unnamed laked at the base of Mt. Versteeg, where there is also great fishing.

These appear to be the closest to Crabtree (OTHER than Crabtree Lakes) to do some fishing. Guitar Lake wasn't among those Mel suggested.”

“There a picture by Mel of a 16" trout that she coaught at Wallace Lake on the Mountain Images CD. But from Crabtree Ranger Station to Wallace Lake is a 16 mile roundtrip dayhike! Even longer if we're camped at Crabtree Lakes. Doesn't sound like it's in the cards for this trip. (More power to you if you decide to go for it.)

Speaking of "cards," have we got any card players (particularly gin players) in the group? I'm trying to decide whether I should bring a deck.”

“ok cowboys and cowgirls...........I am 'on the road to find out'.......

pepperdog...fresh fruit is the first thing i thought about for the llamas to carry for me.

explorer..i always bring cards, but have always forgotten to get them out....i will play.....

i want to thank everyone one of you beautiful beings who have offered up their advice and guidance and rides to me.
i already feel bonded to you all and cant wait to be in your presence....

tell mel " I'm coming and i'm bringin hell with me"...heh, just kidding..
om shanti om~~~~~~~~~~
poof*****”

“I was hoping for some fishing before hitting Whitney...maybe not. Is there fishing at Hitchcock Lakes? Secor wasn't any help in this regard.

Regarding Versteeg Lake: last summer Mel, SARboy (marmot), Solitary Hiker, and I fished there and did pretty good catching rainbows. (photo album)

explorer - when are you actually leaving town?”

“Phil - I'm actually not leaving town until Monday morning. Then it's a straight under five hour drive to Lone Pine, where I'll probably have a buffalo burger at the Whitney Restaurant before driving up to meet you guys at the trailhead. I was thinking of trying to get a really early start and meet you guys at La Casitas, but more likely I'll let the LA morning traffic fade before heading out. Still, if you guys stop for lunch at La Casitas and I stop for lunch in Lone Pine, we might still be able to meet up in Lone Pine and caravan up to the trailhead and perhaps I can shuttle you to Whitney Portal to leave your car, since I'll have plenty of room for extra people and gear. We should exchange cel phone numbers and try to hook up in Lone Pine -- I'll email you tonight with mine.

I can't wait!”

“Explorer - I sent you an email. Please look for it when you get home. prrosenkrant@csupomona.edu”