Why do modern "outdoor" types ignore sur plus?

“Seriously. There are tons of great deals out there, on gear that is designed not just to "expedition" quality, but to last for indefinete periods in extremely hostile environments. And it usually costs half of what the closest comparable civilian product costs, plus comes in nice subdued colors (Camo, Olive drab, desert tan, etc) not pimp style "lookit me" peacock colors. I understand the weight arguement, but if you look, you can find stuff that is even lighter than the lightest civvie gear available, plus twice as durable. Case in point; The Snugpak Merlin Softie Code Green sleeping bags. Probably the lightest bag ever made, rated to 28 degrees, (It keeps me warm in the Rockies in Colo. at 0 easy, with a 4 oz silk bag liner!) 27 oz. including stuffsack, compresses to the size of a small cantaloupe, lined with "Pertex" the british equiv of Goretex and costs $150.00 at the high range. Gear reviewers aren't even aware that this bag EXISTS, it seems. Another one is the folding military Hexamine stove. It weighs 3 oz tops, uses cheap, tiny and light Hexamine solid fuel, ($2 for a box of 12 tabs) and costs $0.99! Why use anything else? Or at least why not consider the cheap and SUPERIOR alternative? Another one is the 2.5 pound Goretex bivy/tent. Camo, 2 pounds including poles, and less than $200.00 NEW. In fact, all of this stuff is new, unissued gear. Maybe it's just my background, but I shop for military gear first, and if something isn't available that matches or beats civvie products, THEN I go to REI. Also, why isn't more civvie grear available in natural colors? (God I hate fining something that is just right, but only comes in orange/chartruce/peppermint acid trip.) Rant over.”

“Hey bit, I didn't know some of this stuff existed until you brought it up, thanks. As for surplus, I have my share, but it is old, outdated and much heavier.

As for the colors of the gear, I tend to like the "pimp style", it represents me better than the camo. Yeah baby!”

“Where do you find this good stuff? Website?

Also is the Snugpak a down bag or what?

(BTW I agree with you on the stupid pimp colors that are common today. Most annoying is the bright "cartoon blue" car colors. I cannot imagine what motivated major auto manufacturers to do that.)”

“My canteens were all surplus up until a few years ago...then they came out with the Camelback and now that's all I use. 'Cept for ponchos and blankets, don't really use any surplus gear. You're probably right, people just don't know about it...

Why don't you keep up this thread and keep us posted Ü

I gotta agree with you on the color scheme dilema, I hate finding a piece of gear I like and it's chartruce! Also, living in AZ, I always consider color when buying gear if it's going on the outside of the pack. Too flippin' hot here to absorb any more heat than you have to..”

“I live in the boonies. Can you order surplus online?”

“Army surplus stores?”

“I suppose you have to be hardcore into the shooting sports/military collectibles to find out about this kind of stuff, that might be the problem with the lack of awareness.
To but it, shop around ALOT! The web rules for bargain shopping, but you really have to go through alot of sites.
The best deal on the Snugpak bags are from British sites, the cheapest I've found here in the states is at http://www2.rangersurplus.com/details.asp?item_id=1512
They aren't down, they're filled with a parachute silk that never loses it's loft, and a reflective thermal barrier that breathes. (Like a space blanket, only without the wrinkle noise .) You can't tell the reflective barrier is there. The draft tube is kind of tiny, but that's my only complaint on this bag. More info at: http://www.snugpak.com/codegreen/softie.htm#
The folding stove and fuel are avail at http://cheaperthandirt.com
And the tents are avail all over, shop around. I paid $150.00 for mine. Also check out the ecotat athttp://www.ironwolfent.com”

“Gotta agree with you on the Camelbaks, best thing out there for water carry.
Since I seem to know about some stuff you guys might appreciate, here goes. I mostly do caving and long term solo off-trail trips, so my gear choices reflect my outdoor habits, they might not be just the right thing for you guys, but I guarantee everything I turn you on to will be top quality, does what it's supposed to, tough as nails gear. Plus I have a penchant for lightweight/small stuff. Anyhow here's the stuff:
You may be aware of this, but it is the best compact saw out there. It's a real chainsaw blade with handles for hand use. It RIPS through firewood. Even hardwoods. Mine has gone 2 years without a sharpening. Packs in a tin the size of a can of chewing tobacco. There are a bunch of different kinds, and they're sold everywhere, but I've got the Short Kutt model. Here's a link, but shop around. http://www.dandfoutfitters.com/catalog/items/item1910.htm
Here's one everyone will like:
This is a bug repellent/killer used to treat clothing and tents. It's safe and odorless, and it lasts a couple of weeks. And it also KILLS the bugs. Ticks included.http://stores.yahoo.com/cspoutdoors/permanone.html
Here's what I use instead of a pack 90% of the time. I carry everything I use for up to 4 weeks inside or attached to this vest with the exception of a shoulder bag for food. It is super tough and weighs a little less than two pounds. This link has a good pic, the following link actually has them in stock. http://marspec.net/301438.html

http://www.sass-kit.fsbusiness.co.uk/Chest_Rigs_Combat_Vests/safricanvest.htm”

“Gotta agree with ya on the durability of the Army gear. Not the most comfortable stuff out there though.”

“Depends on what you get. That bag is soft and toasty warm + tiny and light.
And the summer weight ripstop BDU cargo pants are as comfy as pants get + long lasting.
That vest I mention in my last post is thickly padded on the shoulder straps, and is so adjustable it should come with a manual. It's definetly more comfy than a pack, and your load is distributed way more evenly so it seems much lighter.”

“bitfiend, how would you compare the prices at these other sites to Brigade Quartermaster and U.S. Cavalry? That SA tac vest for $65 sure looks like a deal, even for used.

On the color issue, I always try to find natural colors for exterior items at least (my new daypack is "sage" green), but when I ordered my Gossamer bivy tent, the website said it would be green, but it turned out to be golden on top when it arrived. Such a nice little unit, I kept it, but it irks me a bit. I finally found a Marmot Precip jacket in dark cedar (at least they offer it in one natural color) but buyers for outdoor shops seem partial to the bright blue, chartreuse and red variations.

In the winter I don't worry too much about subdued colors, though I wouldn't mind one of those white spectra packs then.”

“Usually Brigade and US Cavalry are high. Somtimes not too bad, but on other stuff WAY high.
Alot of this stuff you just can't buy from Brigade or US Cav. I buy bdu's from them, but little else.”

“Thanks for the tips, bitfiend. Nothing like having some new gear sites to explore, especially surplus semi-exotic gear sites.

BTW, when you use your mil-surplus gear, do you ever get any negative "anti-militia" type feedback from others in the woods?”

“Not really. I usually am not in an area where anybody else is around to comment on my gear. I'm a longhair, so I don't really look that militaristic even when I'm holding a rifle. (grin)
As far as clothing goes, I mostly wear sweaters, long sleeve poly tops, or tshirts depending on the weather. And most of my bdu's are tan, blk, or green. I basically look like I could have bought my clothes at the gap, aside from my gear.
Even if there are folks who'll mouth off to a complete stranger cause they don't like his choice of gear, who cares? Shrug it off and enjoy your trip knowing you paid less for better stuff that doesn't make you look like a rave clown.
Or just skin them and eat them. You are in the woods, after all. Noone will ever know.
(Just kidding. LOL)”

“Nice thread, bitfiend. Thanks for a couple of new sites to add to my ever-growing list. Sportsmans Guide and Mass Army Navy often have good deals; both online. USCav and BQM are way too overpriced!

I use surplus whenever I can, and if I can't, I won't buy anything civvie unless it's green, brown, grey, or black. I've even camouflaged some of my civvie gear (God help me if I drop a fuel bottle in the woods!). You could pay me a nice compliment by setting up your site 30 feet from mine and then apologizing because you didn't see me!

My winter outerware is the ECWCS parka and pants. May be a tad heavier than TNF and the like, but it's got all the bells and whistles I could want, and I didn't pay $100 for a friggin logo. The whole set was $150, used in good condition. Seen me through many a blizzard hike.

My cook kits are East German surplus, or NATO when I want a big frypan. All lightweight, all under $4.

I still use a GI canteen and canteen cup (the old folding handle style), and carry a 2-quart GI bladder style for extra storage. When I hiked up Rainier with friends a while back on a very hot day, I had the only cold water thanks to my damp canteen cover.

Yeah, I know the Esbit's light, but you'll have to pry my 30-year-old Svea out of my cold, dead hands.

BPer magazine did a small article a few years back on surplus vs civvie. I think that even they agreed, in their own snotty way, that there was some good stuff out there. You just have to know how to sort the junk - and there is a lot of it - from the newer high tech military stuff ( although I wouldn't give you 2 cents for the MOLLE system - talk about overweight!).

I think part of the reason that more people don't go for surplus is that it's not "fashionable" (just gotta have that logo to show off) and that bpers, like most of American society are always looking for the latest and greatest. Even I succumb occasionally - do I really need 4 different headlamps?

May catch you on the trail someday, but it sounds like we won't see each other!lol”

“Forgot to mention my GI poncho. It's my preferred shelter in all but the buggiest or wettest conditions, doubles as truly breathable summer rainwear, comes in at about a pound, and cost me $15.”

“Poncho and poncho liner EXCELLENT gear!”

“When I took up backpacking again after a long hiatus, my first trip was to the local army surplus store.

Found an olive green ensolite pad for $4 and a HUGE blue tarp for $6 (under 8 ounces?) for a ground cloth. PLus I cut it to size for my timeberland and made my own footprint by sewing the edges to stop them from getting raggitty.

Also, one of the Woman on the WWWW Spring hike found a great deal on a black, zippered, duffle bag (canvas?) to use on the airplane trips. It is big enough for her to put her entire, fully loaded pack in and zip shut!!

We affectionately deemed it "THE BODY BAG" because that's what it looked liked strapped to the lid of the trunk!

Thanks for all the other good tips and websites..Off I go exploring...Ka-ching! Ka-ching!”

“Most of my cold weather clothing is Army surplus, but I also have half a garage full of TA-50 to pick from.

As US Army surplus goes, I consider myself somewhat of an expert. I carry some, but a bunch of it can be left behind.”

“Thanks for the information. We do have some surplus stores around. I used to shop there all the time, but not lately. May be time to trip back. (Anyone in Orange County, CA. have any surplus store locations to recommend?)

Good thread!”

“I agree Steiny, a good thread and I, too, like to have a low-viz campsite. Not that I want to carry a camo tarp now to cover up my Gossamer, but my Hennessey Hammock is camo.

bitfiend, as to the reactions of others, I was just wondering about the vibe, as back in the late 70s- early 80s when I would wear camo pants bping, I'd get leary looks from others -- and the militia craze hadn't even hit yet.

I got grilled at the Canadian border in the Soo once because I had camo pants on -- I was the only one of six guys in a canoe partyy to be singled out with the question, over and over, "Do you have any guns?" Good thing I didn't have on combat boots and an ALICE pack in the truck or I would have been cavity searched, LOL.

The irony is how fadsters (I love that term "rave clowns") who wouldn't touch real BDUs will swath themselves in the flash camos, like purples/pinks and reds/oranges/yellows.”

“SGT R0ck - what is your opinion about the Snugpak Merlin Softie Code Green mentioned above for use in a hammock? Still need the reflective auto windshield sun blocker to keep warm or would the reflective layer in the bag work well enough?

HOI”

“I've never used anything like that in the Army, but from his discription it sounds British. I would love for the US Army to get a bag like that. My current Army bag weighs about 5 pounds and ain't much good past 30, and the extreme cold weathers we used back in the 80s were down, but weighed about 8 pounds and didn't compress for crap. There is now a synthetic with a gortex shell and a compression bag, but I haven't got to use it yet. Hopefully in Germany I'll get the latest extreme cold weather stuff.

The US Army Gortex jacket works well but weighs a lot, they have some sort of new raingear under testing.

I have used a poncho and poncho liner for years. I reccomend that for light summer use. I've also trimmed down the green sleeping pad and still had great experiences with them.

The heavy Army polypro underwear is great. Very warm and has a fleece like inside with a semi wind resistant outside. I actually wore a set as outerwear on a hike in an ice storm.

I've slowly been replacing lots of my military gear with lighter stuff, but there is a lot of surpluss gear that is just as good as more expensive gear available. Army stuff is built to be way more durable than what the average hiker needs”

“I use some surplus stuff that I like very well. I have a poncho that I always carry. I also have a neat little stove that is used with esbit or heat tabs that stores over the canteen cup. I use it as a pot stand for my pepsi can stove.

I replaced my green sleeping pad with a thermarest. Bad idea. I'm going back to my green pad. I can't stay on the thermarest. The damn thing slides everywhere.”

“I have army navy stores near me but I was actually too intimidated to go inside. I looked through the US Sportsman site steiny mentioned and it had some good stuff for great prices. I had some trouble navigating the other sites listed. I never did find one of the sleeping bags mentioned, that was for sale on line.

At a girl scout training class where we were outside in the cold and rain all day, one woman had on camo pants and everyone was intrigued. Everyone liked them and wanted to know where she had gotten them. We all got lessons that day on what to wear to stay dry, warm and comfortable. But where to buy the stuff and the details of what was good vs bad, was something that takes time to absorb. This thread has helped me along in that process, thanks.”

“LyndyS,
Try these sites: Soldiercity.com and imsplus.com. I've ordered stuff from both.”

“Re: Wearing Camo in Canada

I have a friend who is a world traveler/hunter. He says NEVER wear anything remotely camo or military outside the US. It can get you in big trouble in some places. He packs extremely light and versatile.”

“why do modern "outdoor" types ignore surplus?

well, lots of "outdoor" types love surplus.

any "backpacker" that wants to have lightweight, comfortable gear goes another route.”

“I have plenty of surplus gear and somre of it is neat stuff - but it's for hunting and/or car camping. The only item I've ever brought bp'ing is my Tiger Stripe Boonie Hat.”

“Well, I'm a backpacker, and my gear is light and comfortable, and it's surplus.
(Or designed for military use.)

My basic gear (tent, pack/vest, sleeping bag, stove & fuel, + compass, saw, polypro undies, space blanket tarp, folding shovel, lighters, katadyn, misc. etc. weigh in at 9.7 pounds.

Beat that with your fabulous urbanite dayhiker mutlicolored "backpacker" route. I dare ya.;^)”

“bitfiend,
Now you know what pekka was refering to with his question about negative "anti-milita" type feedback.

Oh yea, I'm a backpacker and I love the surplus gear that I use. See my post above.”

“This is the best thread on this site in a while. The sleeping bag you mentioned looks interesting, as does the bivy tent. Thanks for bringing them to our attention. In general tho, surplus gear tends to be overbuilt. Most of my first backpacking gear was surplus but I have since weaned most of it out. Jungle boots suck. Plastic canteens melt. The sleeping bags are generally heavy. The alice pack killed my back. Lighter colored tents are superior for interior lighting when stuck inside during a rain/snow storm. I appreciate the yellow panels on my SD tent. $150 for a sleeping bag ain't all that cheap. There are a lot of comparable bags out there for that price. Personally, I prefer down over synthetic. While the assault vest seems interesting and the price is right, a lack of a hip belt leave me a little skeptical. Still, please keep bringing alternative gear selections to the board. I agree, a lot of the trendy new gear is waaaaaay overpriced for what it is.”

“Are there any cool, compact mil. surplus binoculars or scopes?”

“Leatherneck-
Yep, I guess I'm just lucky not to run into snobby folks much.
Heck, I'm not cheap either. I just like the best gear at the best price, brand names be damned.

Roseymonster-
I agree with you 100% on the jungle boots sucking. Especially the imports. I like the insulated Danner Fort Lewis boots, but they are not even close to cheap. (They aren't light, either.)

Plastic canteens do melt, but aluminum ones don't. If you like cooking in your canteens you might want to check out the Swiss ranger kit stove/cup/bottle combo at: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com It's $9.95 and very handy.
As far as the bag goes, if you know of a bag that weighs within a couple of ounces of the Merlin, is as warm & comfy and is lined with goretex or equivalent, and packs as small for less money tell us about it! I haven't seen anything else that comes close to it.

As far as overbuilt goes, as long as it is comparable weight wise, gimme the overbuilt stuff!!!

As far as the vest goes, it doesen't really need a hip belt. It fits you like a vest (Buckles snugly across your middle) and distributes the weight very nicely. Those large pockets on the back/sides are designed to carry a 2 liter canteen each, and the rest is set up for radios and full magazines. Probably a much heavier load than you'll ever carry in one hiking. (Anyone who's ever carried a bunch of ammo around knows how heavy it is.)
Like I said, my setup is very light, and the vest is much more compact and comfy to move around in off trail than a pack.”

“Actually, yes! In fact, the Steiner and Swarovski rangefinding binocs are hands down THE ABSOLUTE BEST optics you'll ever look through. But, they aren't cheap even surplus.
I just bought this tiny Steiner monocular here, and it may be what you are looking for. Very sharp image in a super light & tiny package for very little cash. If you aren't familiar with the brand , do a web search and read some reviews.
http://www.aaacamera.com/steiner_8x22_mini_scope.html”

“Interesting points...

But with regards to the bag, I just don't want to spend $150 on another bag that goes flat in two years. This is a different debate, however:)”

“Kewl! SoldierCity.com has Electric Blue Camo Jungle Hats. I want one to go with my neon yellow polartec jacket, my tangerine sunglasses and lime sherbet ripstop pants! (just kidding). But they had a nice selection of boonie and jungle hats. And they had bandannas. One had a skeleton on it with a coat of arms. I couldn't make out the words printed on the sides. You could spend hours searching these sites. I have to look at the other site too.”

“I weant some 'glow in the dark' stuff.. so I can do night hikes, and be mistaken for a woods ghost.”

“When I first posted my gear list sometime ago, I thought that I might be thought of as odd. My saying at that time was "If it's good enough for the US Army, it's good enough for me".

My main pack is a large ALICE pack (4.5lb, which is very comparible to other "civy" packs for the size). Up until my Manistee trip, I wore a tactical vest, which kept things nice and handy, and an Army mess kit, amoung other Army issue items. Army makes good items, though heavy. The mess kit as been ditched for a aluminum cooking pot and Army spoon, no more plate. I eat right outta the pot and I feel that this keeps the weight down. The vest has to go, in my ever quest to keep the weight down (7lb when loaded. The vest, with web belt, costs 4 lb).

At this point, I wouldn't trade my pack for anything. It has everything to offer, pockets, good frame, very rugged, excellent storage. In the top flap, I have my Nalgene plastic water bottle fitted with a Nalgene drink tube and bite value. Works just like a Camelback and the bottom of the flap is rubber, so if the bottle brakes, my contents stay nice and dry. I have the fuel tablet stove and it works alright. Tabs are a little heavy (depends on how long of a trip your going on) and no simmer. Some meals require more than one tab (9 minutes of burn time), but carring them make starting a fire very easy; cooking with them is messy, but they will burn in any condition.

Army mess is a bear when trying to balance that baby on top of a Pocket Rocket stove, but it cleans up very nicley. I always look at Army first, then make way for REI.”

“Town Dawg, if you're looking for some neat glow in the dark stuff, check out www.neontrim.com.”

“Bitfiend, does your bag have the Pertex on the inside? My down bag uses Pertex for the shell.”

“I wouldn't wear Military Surplus to a swamp draining.

If it is not Arc'Teryx, TNF, Patagonia, or some other over priced, over rated brand name I ain't touching it. Furthermore, anyone who would consider using a single piece of Surplus gear is a uncouth, uneducated, piece of trash.

Most other backpackers I know share the same elitist opinion.”

“Huh?

Ring, ring!! Hello, this is the pot calling the kettle..”

“I'm not afraid to go out with surplus or boy scout stuff either, both are a heck of a lot more durable than some"ultralight" junk and last. I've been using the same 2 stainless canteens and cup for 30 years, in all conditions and never a leak. The shelter halves are good to use too,, denim breathes and works for 4 season, although it's a bit cramped, but easier to share with a buddy and no fly needed. Check ou the mre's too, the local dollar store has em at $6.99 a dozen for 4 to 8 oz. meat entree's, not a bad deal for a 4 year shelf life!”

“Hey Tex! You missed it this time dah'lin.
BacPac was being funny. ”

“Are you sure PedXing? bacpacs don't play. At least thats what I've been lead to believe.”

“bacpac -

fuk the elitist, ya cranky sum bish..”

“Why do modern "outdoor" types ignore surplus?

Because we are pansy ass sissy boys with more money than we know what to do with!”

“Oh, and we enjoy taking it up the ass in our orange/chartruce/peppermint acid trip G-Tex jackets.”

“It's everything you good ol' boy army surplus !$%&S love to hate!”